Would sunfish get along in an 80 gallon with 2 koi and four goldfish? I know I might me sounding stupid, but I have heard they can. Besides does anybody have a orange spotted I can buy from them?
sunfish for tanks
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, Oct 12 2006 08:50 PM
17 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_sandtiger_*
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Posted 12 October 2006 - 10:34 PM
Most sunfish would do fine in an 80g. Most would probably do fine with larger koi and goldfish. All those fish together won't work together in an 80g though. Goldfish themselves grow over a foot long, sometimes over two feet long if they are common goldfish, the fancy types are smaller but won't work with sunfish. Koi grow VERY large, I wouldn't even think of keeping one in an 80g. Is the 80g just a grow out? Are these fish going into a pond or something?
#3
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Posted 13 October 2006 - 07:38 AM
it also depends on what type of sunnfish you want to keep. The local longears we have around here can be vicious and may lash out at a koi, and kill it. very small sunfish would be your best bet, raise them up with the koi and goldfish.
as sandtiger said, koi get to big for an 80 gal.
as sandtiger said, koi get to big for an 80 gal.
#4
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Posted 13 October 2006 - 05:45 PM
My koi, I only have one but I am planning to get another, is 7 inches. Don't worry. I am not a freak who gets fish and puts them in water and expects them to all work it out. My koi will be put in a pond when he gets bigger or sold, same with the goldfish. I think of all of them as my pet investments. Most likely I will save up money to get a giant pond and give the 80 gallon to my natives. (That is if I get natives)
I wanted Orange spotted sunfish.
I wanted Orange spotted sunfish.
#5
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Posted 13 October 2006 - 05:46 PM
I have two commets and the rest of my goldfish are fancy. Why wouldn't a fancy work with a sunfish?
#6
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Posted 13 October 2006 - 05:56 PM
I would think that the sunfish would love to get his chompers on those nice, fancy, frilly fins...
#7
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Posted 13 October 2006 - 10:34 PM
I have two commets and the rest of my goldfish are fancy. Why wouldn't a fancy work with a sunfish?
Well for starters, they are slow and sort of wattle around the tank. A sunfish would probably view them as weak or injured fish and that predatory instinct would kick in, and if it did the goldfish would have a hard time swimming fast enough to get away. They also have those really fancy fins, perfect for a fin nipper.
Glad to hear that your goldfish and koi are going into a pond. If you do get orangespotted get some that are smaller than the cyprinids. Even still they may go after them so keep an eye on the situation. I have never kept those sunfish, I know they are a smaller species but I have no clue about how aggresive they are.
#8
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Posted 23 October 2006 - 10:11 PM
Well the sunfish come tomorrow and I have heard from some people that it should be ok> I honestly dought a sunfish would fo after one of my two fancies, because my koi thinks he is one and would fight them off. Anyway, if it doesn't work out I will frantically run to the store for an aquarium divider.
Unforntuatly, since my koi thinks he is a goldfish, that goes for mating too. He has been chasing one of my fancies arround for about 30 min now and I have found out, she can swim pretty fast.
I do know what you mean by waggling. I will be sure to tell you all how it goes. THe following are quotes from a book and several sites;
Temperment: Ocationally agressive
Commonly agressive to smaller fish who are to big to eat.
I was thinking though and I wondered why a sunfish would be agressive in the first place. WOuld it be only for food? or space? If one of my goldfish schools with the others, would it be safer?
Unforntuatly, since my koi thinks he is a goldfish, that goes for mating too. He has been chasing one of my fancies arround for about 30 min now and I have found out, she can swim pretty fast.
I do know what you mean by waggling. I will be sure to tell you all how it goes. THe following are quotes from a book and several sites;
Temperment: Ocationally agressive
Commonly agressive to smaller fish who are to big to eat.
I was thinking though and I wondered why a sunfish would be agressive in the first place. WOuld it be only for food? or space? If one of my goldfish schools with the others, would it be safer?
#9
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Posted 24 October 2006 - 12:20 AM
Well the sunfish come tomorrow and I have heard from some people that it should be ok> I honestly dought a sunfish would fo after one of my two fancies, because my koi thinks he is one and would fight them off. Anyway, if it doesn't work out I will frantically run to the store for an aquarium divider.
You should have a divider on hand already, you're probably going to need it. Your koi dosen't think it's a goldfish, it hangs with them for lack of options, even if it did think it were a goldfish he won't protect them. Fish don't work like that...unless they are guarding fry as is the case with some species, goldfish and koi not being among them. Your koi is not interested in protecting any fish but itself.
Could be mateing, again...lack of options. Could also be aggresion.Unforntuatly, since my koi thinks he is a goldfish, that goes for mating too. He has been chasing one of my fancies arround for about 30 min now and I have found out, she can swim pretty fast.
I was thinking though and I wondered why a sunfish would be agressive in the first place. Would it be only for food? or space? If one of my goldfish schools with the others, would it be safer?
Sunfish are just aggresive fish, partly because they are predators and partly because they are prey. They also prefer to have a bit of space. They often won't put up with other species of sunfish, or even with their own species. Most males will chase females away after spawning and sometimes in a tank environment kill them. Your goldfish are not safe.
#10
Guest_choupique_*
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 12:18 AM
Actually I have goldfish in with many of my sunfish tanks. They sometimes get a bit beat up, but they are in there to clean algae and duckweed up not look pretty. I hate duckweed! The goldfish I use are all comets or "standard" finned ones.
You will notice in the picture lots of cover, and maybe see the goldfish and some of the sunfish in the lower left hand corner of the tank. That is the key with sunfish, lots of cover, lots of food, and enough fish to keep each other occupied. This is a thirty gallon tank with a reverse trio of Florida dollar sunfish, a pair of bantam sunfish, and the lone goldfish. Normally I like to keep atleast a pair of goldfish in a tank like this, since they do better with atleast another of their kind.
The cover consists of driftwood roots, and some kind of elodea, not the common canadensis (sp?) kind, and it is not the large anacharis type.
The fish have only been together since earlier this month, but I have done this for years. I take care of some peoples goldfish from their garden ponds over winter, and the young I use for things like this, and feeders.
You will notice in the picture lots of cover, and maybe see the goldfish and some of the sunfish in the lower left hand corner of the tank. That is the key with sunfish, lots of cover, lots of food, and enough fish to keep each other occupied. This is a thirty gallon tank with a reverse trio of Florida dollar sunfish, a pair of bantam sunfish, and the lone goldfish. Normally I like to keep atleast a pair of goldfish in a tank like this, since they do better with atleast another of their kind.
The cover consists of driftwood roots, and some kind of elodea, not the common canadensis (sp?) kind, and it is not the large anacharis type.
The fish have only been together since earlier this month, but I have done this for years. I take care of some peoples goldfish from their garden ponds over winter, and the young I use for things like this, and feeders.
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#11
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 09:19 AM
Waaaaait a sec.... goldfish eat duckweed???
Maybe I need to borrow one from someone after all...
Maybe I need to borrow one from someone after all...
#12
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 09:27 AM
Actually I have goldfish in with many of my sunfish tanks. They sometimes get a bit beat up, but they are in there to clean algae and duckweed up not look pretty. I hate duckweed! The goldfish I use are all comets or "standard" finned ones.
My first post in this thread said it is possable if the goldfish are comets or commons, even beter if they are larger. And even still, you said yours get beat up from time-to-time. I don't think theoriginal poster wants beat up goldfish. Also, I think useing the egg shaped goldfish is asking for trouble. The way they swim is an invitation for abuse and those fancy fins are like a beacon. I had a 3" pumpkinseed pick on a 8" bullhead for a period of time, sure...he didn't kill it but the bullhead was not a happy camper. That was a bullhead, I cannot imagine what my same pumpkinseed would do to my ryukins.
#13
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 10:47 AM
Yes, I have never used any of the fancy goldfish, that is true.
It seems in my experience if the sunfish are being territorial, they are going after everyone. The aim is to get them to settle down with enough cover, enough food ( hungry sunfish are more territorial), and to have enough fish in the tank to break up territories and get the most dominant fish confused as to who to be aggressive towards.
Although finding information strictly on sunfish is pretty rough, using the information cichlid keepers have posted all over the net can help get sunfish to "behave".
These were not goldfish, but close enough. I had a seventy five gallon set up one winter with dollars, greens, and warmouth. The three species all had one male nesting with eggs or fry. I also had a small group of larger pearl dace. The dace were totally ignored ( unless they neared the fry), while different species off sunfish were driven from the nest area, and females allowed in the perimeter of these territories. The same tank with just a pair of greens or dollars, would have probably ended up with dead female sunfish and ripped up pearl dace.
What I am trying to get at, community tanks with sunfish can be done, its just not as easy as putting some dace, cyprinella, darters, and a tiny madtom in a tank. Just as keeping cichlid community tanks is not as easy as a tank with some tetras, barbs, gouramis and a bristlenose. It is definatly worth it though to try and succeed.
It seems in my experience if the sunfish are being territorial, they are going after everyone. The aim is to get them to settle down with enough cover, enough food ( hungry sunfish are more territorial), and to have enough fish in the tank to break up territories and get the most dominant fish confused as to who to be aggressive towards.
Although finding information strictly on sunfish is pretty rough, using the information cichlid keepers have posted all over the net can help get sunfish to "behave".
These were not goldfish, but close enough. I had a seventy five gallon set up one winter with dollars, greens, and warmouth. The three species all had one male nesting with eggs or fry. I also had a small group of larger pearl dace. The dace were totally ignored ( unless they neared the fry), while different species off sunfish were driven from the nest area, and females allowed in the perimeter of these territories. The same tank with just a pair of greens or dollars, would have probably ended up with dead female sunfish and ripped up pearl dace.
What I am trying to get at, community tanks with sunfish can be done, its just not as easy as putting some dace, cyprinella, darters, and a tiny madtom in a tank. Just as keeping cichlid community tanks is not as easy as a tank with some tetras, barbs, gouramis and a bristlenose. It is definatly worth it though to try and succeed.
#14
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 12:23 PM
For my 75 I have two 4" longear, one 3.5" Green and a 7.5" Green x bluegill hybrid. They all seem to get along pretty good. The one longear tends two chase the other two smaller fish around a bit but if he gets to close to the hybrid he bakes down and hides. The hybrid is actually pretty calm all he wants to do is eat. If the hybrid was not in there I would probably try some shiners as a type of dither fish. I think having plenty of hiding places will help with the aggression. I have mulitiple larger caves along with lots of plants, mostly fake for now, for my fish to hide in.
#15
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 01:02 PM
That is what I was trying to get at. Giving all the fish secure hiding places, and I did not mention it by name, but dither fish are important.
Watching the different fish interact, even with some aggression, is very rewarding. The fish will teach you things about themselves, and you can use these lessons to improve your fish keeping.
Much of sunfish aggression is because they are not used to sharing a small area with other fish. They are not used to having to share this area, because they instictivly know that limits the food they will recieve, and the survival of their young.
Getting the sunfish to not worry about other fish in their area is key. How this is done is not cut and dry. There are several things that can be tried, and no one thing will work the same every time.
As others have said, raising the fish from smaller sizes in these conditions will help condition them to living like this. That is why larger sunfish are often rippers, while those raised from a small size in an aquarium will be much better at coping with tank mates.
Having a group of goldfish, or as in this case koi goldfish mix, the goldfish will be more secure in a group. This will also help that one goldfish is not a target. Dither fish work best in groups that feel comfortable. A nervous dither is probably a wounded or sick one, and is a target triggering predatory or territorial aggression.
Watching the different fish interact, even with some aggression, is very rewarding. The fish will teach you things about themselves, and you can use these lessons to improve your fish keeping.
Much of sunfish aggression is because they are not used to sharing a small area with other fish. They are not used to having to share this area, because they instictivly know that limits the food they will recieve, and the survival of their young.
Getting the sunfish to not worry about other fish in their area is key. How this is done is not cut and dry. There are several things that can be tried, and no one thing will work the same every time.
As others have said, raising the fish from smaller sizes in these conditions will help condition them to living like this. That is why larger sunfish are often rippers, while those raised from a small size in an aquarium will be much better at coping with tank mates.
Having a group of goldfish, or as in this case koi goldfish mix, the goldfish will be more secure in a group. This will also help that one goldfish is not a target. Dither fish work best in groups that feel comfortable. A nervous dither is probably a wounded or sick one, and is a target triggering predatory or territorial aggression.
#16
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Posted 29 December 2006 - 08:26 PM
Just a heads up I made a new topic of how it went. Orange spotts are the most peaceful of the sunfish and my guys only get agressive arround food, which is good.
As for my koi, by him being so big and schooling with goldfish I mean thats how he will fend the sunnies off. I dindn't mean it like he loved the sunnies so he would put his life on the line. No way.
Also FYI koi always school with goldfish, even 20 koi would school with goldfish. They also spawn with goldfish. This is NOT unusual. Even if I had 100 koi, my koi now would still spawn with a goldfish as well as other koi. Serosly if you want to get into a koi behavior knowlage contest, for me its like sombody getting in a bible quoting contest with a nun.
I also don't think in general sunfish are going to go after a fish almost twice their size, no matter how injured they look.
As for my koi, by him being so big and schooling with goldfish I mean thats how he will fend the sunnies off. I dindn't mean it like he loved the sunnies so he would put his life on the line. No way.
Also FYI koi always school with goldfish, even 20 koi would school with goldfish. They also spawn with goldfish. This is NOT unusual. Even if I had 100 koi, my koi now would still spawn with a goldfish as well as other koi. Serosly if you want to get into a koi behavior knowlage contest, for me its like sombody getting in a bible quoting contest with a nun.
I also don't think in general sunfish are going to go after a fish almost twice their size, no matter how injured they look.
#17
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Posted 29 December 2006 - 10:23 PM
Also FYI koi always school with goldfish, even 20 koi would school with goldfish. They also spawn with goldfish. This is NOT unusual. Even if I had 100 koi, my koi now would still spawn with a goldfish as well as other koi. Serosly if you want to get into a koi behavior knowlage contest, for me its like sombody getting in a bible quoting contest with a nun.
A koi behavior knowledge contest?
You said your koi thought it was a goldfish, just becuase they swim around together does not mean they have some sort of species identity crisis going on. I never said it was strange that they shoaled together, I'm aware that they shoal together....there is safty in numbers, no matter the species and many species of different fish will hang out together. I am also aware that they breed, I have seen the resulting hybrids myself. I also don't think in general sunfish are going to go after a fish almost twice their size, no matter how injured they look.
Think what you want, I have seen it first hand (remember my 4" pumpkinseed and 8" bullhead?).
#18
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Posted 29 December 2006 - 10:28 PM
huh, thats crazy. Silly sunfish.
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