I'm thinking sunfish and/or darters. Are they compatible? the tank is a 30 long.
sun possibles--banded, blue spot, orange spot, dollar
darter possibles--rainbow, greenside, savannah, orangethroat, variegate
Are they(either) able to mingle with differnt sp. of the same type....ex. 2 dollars with 2 orange spots? also with darters?
how many would be a good suggestion to fit correctly in a tank that size?
1st native setup idea
Started by
Guest_jsciacca_*
, Apr 01 2008 07:47 PM
11 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_viridari_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 02:40 PM
First, since I haven't done so already, welcome to the forum!
I must say I'm a little surprised that Irate hasn't popped in yet to tell you that they will all die. Not that they will; that's just what he's here to do.
I've had darters and sunfish get along. I am no expert on this. But the key seems to be keeping species that are about the same size.
I must say I'm a little surprised that Irate hasn't popped in yet to tell you that they will all die. Not that they will; that's just what he's here to do.
I've had darters and sunfish get along. I am no expert on this. But the key seems to be keeping species that are about the same size.
#3
Guest_jase_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 03:22 PM
You know, we really need someone to write up a good "Intro to Keeping Native Fish" post and pin it within Captive Care. That would cover stuff like size of tank needed, water parameters, what species are easy, what of the common species can be paired with what, what kind of things folks generally feed natives, etc. This "how do I get started?" question seems to keep coming up, and people need to answer the same questions over and over. It'd be great if this info was just out there in a readily-available pinned post.
No... I'm not offering to do this! I've been keeping native fish for about 5 years now, but I still consider myself a newbie in all respects other than raising live food (and even there, my expertise is limited to white worms, blackworms, red wiggler compost worms, mealworms, and mosquito larvae. I've only kept a very limited number of species -- mostly sunfish, bass, bullheads, and pygmy sunfish. There are some "old timers" on this list that could do a far, far better job of a comprehensive "Intro to Keeping Native Fish" than I could possibly hope to do.
By no means am I picking on newbies -- heck, the more the merrier! But, it'd be cool if we had a better resource for these newbies so that they don't *need* to keep asking the same question.
Cheers, Jase
No... I'm not offering to do this! I've been keeping native fish for about 5 years now, but I still consider myself a newbie in all respects other than raising live food (and even there, my expertise is limited to white worms, blackworms, red wiggler compost worms, mealworms, and mosquito larvae. I've only kept a very limited number of species -- mostly sunfish, bass, bullheads, and pygmy sunfish. There are some "old timers" on this list that could do a far, far better job of a comprehensive "Intro to Keeping Native Fish" than I could possibly hope to do.
By no means am I picking on newbies -- heck, the more the merrier! But, it'd be cool if we had a better resource for these newbies so that they don't *need* to keep asking the same question.
Cheers, Jase
#4
Guest_butch_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 07:24 PM
That's great idea, Jase! There's not much info on native fishes' capitive care & requirements on the interent. Maybe one day this forum will set up the species page and their requirements or their personally experiences on this species. Of course this apply to only legally species that can kept in the aquarium such as rainbow darters, bluefin killifish and green sunfish not least chub, devil hole pupfish or any endangered fishes that cannot taken out of their native home.
#5
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 07:41 PM
JSciacca- Remember to take into account the fish species' preferred habitats as well as their sizes and dispositions. Most darters prefer fairly strong current, but some do fine in still water. Most of the smaller sunfishes are still water fish, but a few do fine in current.
I think you could keep blue-spotted and banded OR dollar and orange-spotted sunfish together in that tank. Blues/black-spotteds need lots of vegetation; swamp darters would be a good companion. I'm not sure what darters would go well with orange-spotted/dollar sunfish; they would need to be fairly large and assertive. If you want a diverse group of stream darters, you should probably give up on keeping sunfish with them; sunfish are too big and aggressive. Dace and other minnows make better darter companions.
I think you could keep blue-spotted and banded OR dollar and orange-spotted sunfish together in that tank. Blues/black-spotteds need lots of vegetation; swamp darters would be a good companion. I'm not sure what darters would go well with orange-spotted/dollar sunfish; they would need to be fairly large and assertive. If you want a diverse group of stream darters, you should probably give up on keeping sunfish with them; sunfish are too big and aggressive. Dace and other minnows make better darter companions.
#6
Guest_fundulus_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 07:51 PM
Since Chris the Scharpf hasn't mentioned it yet, the NANFA quarterly American Currents has thirty years' worth of writing on keeping native fishes. It's all available on a 2-volume CD set, and some of the more recent material is available on the NANFA website at nanfa.org.
#7
Guest_JohnO_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 08:07 PM
I recently started a 75 gal setup. I was fortunate in that I have a fast moving creek that cuts through my farm. Everything in that tank came out of the creek - water, sand, rocks, fish, crawfish, snails, and I believe there's a salamander in there somewhere. You might try something similar, if you have access to a local clean creek - get all the water and substrate out of it.
Right now, it has around 10 darters and five creek chub, along with a single sculpin and four small crawfish. I had two large craws, but they were troublemakers - fighting each other, muddying up the water, and chasing the fish.
I'm still mulling over putting a juvenile longear sunfish in. Probably won't, darters and creek chub are quite entertaining.
Right now, it has around 10 darters and five creek chub, along with a single sculpin and four small crawfish. I had two large craws, but they were troublemakers - fighting each other, muddying up the water, and chasing the fish.
I'm still mulling over putting a juvenile longear sunfish in. Probably won't, darters and creek chub are quite entertaining.
Edited by JohnO, 02 April 2008 - 08:08 PM.
#8
Guest_jase_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 09:10 PM
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of info available there and the AC archive is an *awesome* info source. But... I haven't seen that NANFA has any good single "Intro" reference that would give a beginner the basics, and then let them seek out more detailed info on specific species they want to keep (via the family groups on the forum, or through old AC articles).Since Chris the Scharpf hasn't mentioned it yet, the NANFA quarterly American Currents has thirty years' worth of writing on keeping native fishes. It's all available on a 2-volume CD set, and some of the more recent material is available on the NANFA website at nanfa.org.
Cheers, Jase
#9
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 09:17 PM
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of info available there and the AC archive is an *awesome* info source. But... I haven't seen that NANFA has any good single "Intro" reference that would give a beginner the basics, and then let them seek out more detailed info on specific species they want to keep (via the family groups on the forum, or through old AC articles).
Cheers, Jase
One of the problems, at least in my opinion, is that we do not have a consensus of what would be a good starter aquarium... when I got started in NANFA some time ago, a lot of the emphasis was on darters and other small relatively unknown fish... that sort of focus lends itself to a certain type of set up... longer, lower tank, power heads to create current, be careful not to get too much heat in the tank, some darters some midwater fish, snails, etc.... now we have a lot of talk about planted tanks, walsted set ups, minimal filtration, lower flow... and the forum has seemed to draw in a lot of people that are interested in sunfish and other larger fish which require a totally different set up (on which I will not comment since these types of tanks are not my thing). So I do not think there is a single answer anymore (if there ever was). We have become a more diverse group, and that requires us to ask and answer a lot of questions... but that may be the nature of growth... and communication... and more growth... and more communication...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#10
Guest_jase_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 09:59 PM
Agreed, but I think it'd be possible to describe what a few appropriate "beginner" species/communities are, and what the simplest yet still humane / effective setups for each are.One of the problems, at least in my opinion, is that we do not have a consensus of what would be a good starter aquarium...
[...]
So I do not think there is a single answer anymore (if there ever was). We have become a more diverse group, and that requires us to ask and answer a lot of questions...
For example, in my opinion/experience, small sunfish are pretty easy to start with, and don't require much of anything beyond a basic tropical community tank (but without the heater). I haven't kept darters or other stream species, so I don't know about those. In any case, the standard $30 10g setup is really appropriate for only a limited number of the smallest native fish species. No one should be putting a largemouth bass, pickerel, or even any but the smallest sunfish in a 10g unless they're prepared buy a significantly larger tank in the near future -- I think we can all agree on that.
And... beginners definitely shouldn't try sculpins or other obligate cold water, high-oxygen, live-food-only fish unless they have significant fishkeeping experience (from the tropical or goldfish world) and are willing to get the needed equipment. I tried to keep a couple sculpins in warm, minimally-circulated tanks back when I was first starting out, and I still feel a little bad about the inevitable result...
Anyone want to take this task on? I'd love to, but like I said my experience is really limited, and I just don't have time right now. I'm just about to sign a purchase agreement on my first house -- time for my fishkeeping to *really* get crazy.
#11
Guest_macantley_*
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Posted 02 April 2008 - 10:16 PM
just my opinion but a standard 30 gallon tank is no where near large enough for a full grown sunfish unless you can find some pygmy sunfish.
ive heard of pumpkinseed sunfish growing to 5-6 inches and be full size, you may be able to house two of them at 30 gallons, but i suggest no smaller than a 40 breeder or 55 gallon for sunfish, darters will be fine from 10-45 gallon tanks, any larger and your wasting alot of tank area.
matthew
ive heard of pumpkinseed sunfish growing to 5-6 inches and be full size, you may be able to house two of them at 30 gallons, but i suggest no smaller than a 40 breeder or 55 gallon for sunfish, darters will be fine from 10-45 gallon tanks, any larger and your wasting alot of tank area.
matthew
#12
Guest_jase_*
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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:10 AM
I agree -- bigger is almost always better when you're talking tanks. When I got into this hobby 5 years back, a 10g was my starter tank, and the 29g that I bought seemed huge. Now the 29g is my smallest tank that I'm using for anything other than fry/breeding. It's counter-intuitive for beginners, but bigger tanks are easier -- more stable chemistry and temperature, not much more work to clean or change water. Personally, I'd now recommend 55g tanks as the best "starter" size. They're enough of commodity size that they're pretty cheap (I just saw one including hood/lights for $100 at PetSmart), and they give you plenty of room to keep most of the common choices.just my opinion but a standard 30 gallon tank is no where near large enough for a full grown sunfish unless you can find some pygmy sunfish.
ive heard of pumpkinseed sunfish growing to 5-6 inches and be full size, you may be able to house two of them at 30 gallons, but i suggest no smaller than a 40 breeder or 55 gallon for sunfish, darters will be fine from 10-45 gallon tanks, any larger and your wasting alot of tank area.
matthew
As for darter tanks -- I just picked up two 30-long tanks used at my LFS. Same footprint as a 55g, but just a bit over half as tall. They seem like a fantastic size for a fish that is going to spend its time either on the bottom of the tank (darters) or at the top (topminnows).
It's taken me a few years to get here, but I'm at the point where the only thing I'd put in less than a 30g tank is pygmy sunfish. Even a 10g is overkill for them if you're only keeping a few. Give them too much room to hide and you'll *never* see them -- and what's the fun in that?
Cheers, Jase
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