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20 gallon Long Pygmy Sunfish

Started by Guest_NVCichlids_* , Apr 03 2008 06:40 PM

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#1 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:40 PM

That is the design I was hoping to work with. I was hoping to house 8 Pygmy Sunfish ( either everglades or okeneferee lol) and 20 Least Killiefish, 6 pygmy cory cats, 8 oto cats. The tank is a 20 gallon Long.
Now the questions: Does that seem to work?
Are the fish good for eachother?
Should the cory cats and oto cats be removed?
Will the plants work? and What type of bulb should I use?
Do filters work for planted tanks?
Any feed back will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

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#2 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:34 PM

I think there's too many least killies for the tank since pygmy sunnies are shy fish and least killifish could eat all pygmy sunfish's food before pygmy sunfish could get some of it. Do you want breed them then don't add any species, even otos or corydoras. I think corydoras are too much active for pygmy sunfish. Pygmy sunfish do well in heavily planted tank, I meant very heavily planted. Pygmy sunfish are do better in species tank than community tank. Do you know what you can feed them? Live and frozen foods only.

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#3 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 08:01 AM

yeah, I know what to feed them. I have been doing reading on them for a few months now, and that is why I wanted the least killiefish because of their live birth, the babies would become instant food. I was told by the person who breeds and sells both species that the tank should be ok with the killies and sunfish. I can easily feed them frozen/live all the time, heck I do it already with my cichlids cause it tends to get them spawning. i was also thinking of adding a nice group of skuds so that there would be babies from them to eat, and ghost/grass shrimp once again for the same reason. i will scratch off the cories though, the shrimp should be able to do the cleaning. I am still planning on relocating my breeding pair of otos to the tank along with some friends for them, seeing none of my current extremely shy fish are bothered by them.

Is that tank design not heavily planted enough?

Thanks for your help, any more info will be appreciated.

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#4 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 04 April 2008 - 10:07 AM

Is that tank design not heavily planted enough?

Thanks for your help, any more info will be appreciated.

Some will say if you can see the fish it's not heavily planted enough... but that is a minor overstatement...

Two other ideas that I would toss out to you...

Snails work well as a clean up crew, are very prolific, and I think that the pygmy sunnies eat the baby snails... at least my tanks have never been over run...

If you can, consider rotating out some floating plants... I keep water lettuce outside in ponds/trashcans, and in my pygmy tanks... occasionally I take plants from the inside out and plants from outside in... the pygmys immediately go into a hunting mode and start eating little critters I can barely even see... keeps em busy for several days...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#5 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 10:23 AM

See:
http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=4383
http://forum.nanfa.o...h...ost&p=32466

I kept 5 pygmy sunfish in a 5 gallon tank with just some java moss in it. I fed mostly white worms -- just dropped them into the java moss and the pygmies would hunt them down as they squirmed their way downward. Very few ever made it to the gravel. In my opinion, this tank was *plenty* big for these tiny little guys. They even bred successfully once (although I didn't make any effort to keep/feed the fry -- didn't have anything appropriate to feed them at the time.).

I think your setup will work and will be cool, but I'd start a bit simpler and grow from there...

Java moss plus pygmy sunfish seems like a match made in heaven to me. It's perfect for them to hide in -- you just might not see a lot of them.

Cheers,
Jase

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#6 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 10:49 AM

Java moss + pygmy sunfish = happy pygmy sunfish with babies! Otos can work out with pygmy sunfish as they are not so much active. Least killifish are not so proflic as they only give birth a fry or two each one or 3 days. But what about cherry shrimp since they are so proflic and easy to breed.

Scuds/cherry shrimp are good choice but if you want breed your pygmy sunfish then set up 10gal for shrimps with java moss and feed the shrimplets to the pygmy sunfish as shrimp might eat sunfish eggs in java moss.

Breeding pygmy sunfish are very fun!

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#7 Guest_devoneli_*

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 06:58 AM

I have a similar set up. 20g L with 6 oke's and 15 h. formosa (started with 15 anyway). I use snails and cherry shrimp as cleaners. I have vals in the back, couple pieces of driftwood in the middle, anubias in front, and 3/4 of the tank is filled with java moss. Rarely see the pygmies. You will need to do extra work to make sure the pygmies eat, since the formosa are much more aggressive feeders- I feed flake first, then use a turkey baster to squeeze live or frozen food towards the bottom. I've heard the pygmies will eat fry too, but have yet to see that happen. I'm assuming they're eating the baby cherry shrimp. I like this set up, but enjoyed my desktop pygmy set up more. Just a 2 g cube that housed a pair and a couple of shrimp, with anubias and moss. No heater, no filter, only weekly water change. They bred like crazy. Male showed his colors much more in this set up as well.

That is the design I was hoping to work with. I was hoping to house 8 Pygmy Sunfish ( either everglades or okeneferee lol) and 20 Least Killiefish, 6 pygmy cory cats, 8 oto cats. The tank is a 20 gallon Long.
Now the questions: Does that seem to work?
Are the fish good for eachother?
Should the cory cats and oto cats be removed?
Will the plants work? and What type of bulb should I use?
Do filters work for planted tanks?
Any feed back will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

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#8 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:00 PM

Will adding a CO2 diffuser harm the fish? I have been reading about them and am thinking I would like to add one so that I can have allt he plants I want and have them thrive. I have decided against the corys and decided on some cherry shrimp. It seems that aquabid has some really great deals on cherry shrimps, plus they add a nice color! The otos will stay because I love my otos and I currently have some breeding soo..

Thanks everyone, and a newer tank design will be posted soon. Keep suggestions coming!

NV

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#9 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:11 PM

CO2 will not harm the fish. But you have to finagle your filtration and aeration a bit to get CO2 to work; any filter that causes surface agitation (most of them) will cause your CO2 to be rapidly lost to the atmosphere. If you're running a sponge or undergravel filter, you could alternate it with the CO2: run CO2 in the daytime when plants can use it, and the filter at night.

Edited by Newt, 07 April 2008 - 05:11 PM.

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#10 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 08:18 AM

CO2 will not harm the fish. But you have to finagle your filtration and aeration a bit to get CO2 to work; any filter that causes surface agitation (most of them) will cause your CO2 to be rapidly lost to the atmosphere. If you're running a sponge or undergravel filter, you could alternate it with the CO2: run CO2 in the daytime when plants can use it, and the filter at night.

So If I were to do a sponge filter and the CO2 DIY system, I should only run the sponge at night once the lights are off? Hmm, might be more tricky than I was expecting. Will the fish suffer at all from not having a filter running or sponge filter going??

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#11 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:17 AM

Will the fish suffer at all from not having a filter running or sponge filter going??

If you keep the number of fish down, you'll have no problem with keeping the filter off during the day.

Another alternative would be to power a sponge filter (or something like my sponge filter replacement: http://forum.nanfa.o...h...ost&p=33066) off a tiny powerhead rather than an airlift. That way you won't create surface agitation that would remove your dissolved CO2. It'd help to strap a nylon mesh dish scrubbie (http://tinyurl.com/6haczy) over the outflow of the powerhead to diffuse the flow and avoid creating too much current. The smallest powerheads can cost as little as $6-10.

-Jase

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#12 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 11:56 AM

I really don't think you'll want the CO2 diffuser. If you want a little extra CO2 and good rooting material, place a layer of dried leaves under the gravel. A soil layer will help the plants as well. I have found adding CO2 more trouble than it's worth.

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#13 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 12:40 PM

I really don't think you'll want the CO2 diffuser. If you want a little extra CO2 and good rooting material, place a layer of dried leaves under the gravel. A soil layer will help the plants as well. I have found adding CO2 more trouble than it's worth.

Alright, now *that's* why I love this forum! Go into most any tropical forum out there, and NVCichlids would be getting tons of recommendations as to why he *needs* the newest, shiniest CO2 injection system on the market. Here on NANFA? "Add dried leaves." I love it.

Like I just said in a thread on filtration, my goal is always to use as much biology and as little chemistry as possible. Sodium thiosulfate as a dechlor treatment (we have chloramine here) is about as much chemistry as I'll use.

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#14 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 07:43 AM

Thanks guys, I was also thinking of placing a layer of dried leaves over the substraight to simulate wild. There are a few trees around here the never fully lost their leaves so I thought i would use them.

I also like that, cause I am a member on several forums ( 4 others than this one) and they all HIGHLY recommended the CO2. So with the topsoil stuff, you put that on the bottom then a layer of leaves, then sand/gravel, then in my case more leaves? This tank seems to be like the Walstad's way kind of natural tank, correct?

Below is a few more tank design/Ideas. Let me know what you think!

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#15 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:25 AM

Thanks guys...

Below is a few more tank design/Ideas. Let me know what you think!

I vote for number four... more partitioning of habitat, and males like to stake out territory under thinks sometimes...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#16 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 11:51 AM

I like the partitioning of habitat idea too, but if you're like me, after a while it will probably become an un-partitioned mix once it grows...

Keep in mind that hornwort (Ceratophyllum demersum) will not root and will eventually lift and float on the top. It does make excellent cover, but if you want the rooted look, it will take maintenance to constantly replant it. Also, it has a very similar look to Cabomba. You might want to consider using 2 more contrasting plants, like Cabomba and Sagittaria.

Here's how I would do the soil:
Layer of leaves on the glass bottom
Layer of dirt (cheap hyponex stuff or from outside). Use to keep the leaves down.
Dampen dirt (if not already) and tamp down to get the leaves contained underneath
Cover with gravel.
Add a couple inches water (carefully, as to not disturb the gravel and stir up the dirt)
Add driftwood
Plant the plants
Change water if you mixed it up a lot
Finish filling the tank
Add any other leaves you want for aesthetics after it is full and you can see how the plants flow.

There are a lot of ways to do this, but this is how I'd proceed.

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#17 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 05:13 PM

You might want to consider using 2 more contrasting plants, like Cabomba and Sagittaria.

I thought sag's weren't of american decent? I wanted to try to stick with plants from florida. Also, could I use sand and still have the same affect as the gravel ( not a bit fan of gravel. I went sand and now I don't want to go back.)

Will the cabomba stay down in the substraight? the only plants I have kept are vals, swords, cryps and mosses/ferns on driftwood. I will be collecting driftwood for this in the next couple of weeks, wish me luck with that!

Thanks for you help, it is greatly appreciated!

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#18 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 05:21 PM

Several Sagittarias are native to FL, including the common aquarium species S. subulata and S. latifolia.

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#19 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:14 PM

Cabomba should root just fine.

Sand can be used, but you should be aware that mulm tends to accumulate on top of it (whereas with gravel it sifts down into it more). Only a problem if you are the fastidious, "postcard" tank type. Vacuuming the mulm is also difficult over sand, since the sand tends to come up, too. But if it doesn't bother you, go ahead. I use sand in tanks that have more delicate plant species like Mayaca. Cabomba is also a little delicate, but a fine gravel would be OK as well.

Another native linear-leaved plant that would contrast well against the Cabomba is Echinodorus tenellus. Valisneria americana would do well in a taller tank.

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#20 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:45 PM

Just a compositional note - have you ever heard of the rule of 3rds? Basically, it means don't place your centerpiece/point of focus in the middle of the layout - if you divide the frame (aquarium) into 3rds (vertically and horizontally) and place the focus at one of the intersections, it is visually more interesting. I do this in photography all the time. Of course like all rules this one is made to be broken. Don't put your centerpiece in the center unless there is a really good reason for it.

Take #4 for example. Instead of placing the stump in the center, move it to the right side of the tank. The pile of rocks provides an interesting counterpoint. I think you have a potential winner there.

Edited by Irate Mormon, 09 April 2008 - 06:48 PM.