Oops? I think I mis-ID'd this Shiner...

It's a little roughed up from the minnow trap... It was collected in Spring Creek in NE Oklahoma. I thought I new what it was creekside...now I'm not so sure...can anyone confirm?




Also...is this the same species?



More pics available upon request.

This paper helps. I can also scan and provide the Mcneely paper as well if needed.

http://www.owrb.ok.g...pring_creek.pdf

I believe that might be a cardinal shiner. It's kind of hard to tell how many rays are in the anal fin, if it's 8 it's probably a N. boops, if it's 9 it's a L. cardinalis.

Edited by Etheostoma, 05 April 2008 - 06:04 AM.

I believe that might be a cardinal shiner. It's kind of hard to tell how many rays are in the anal fin, if it's 8 it's probably a N. boops, if it's 9 it's a L. cardinalis.

...I thought it was 8 dorsal rays that characterized Notropis sp.....do Luxilus species have 8 dorsal? I agree they have 9 anal...

any thought that one of these could be a "Dusky stripe"? Also, there are tuburcules on the snouts of some of my established fishes that had been diagnosed as "N. boops"...would this be correct for N. boops?

I will get some more pictures that give a clear count of both the Anal and Dorsal fins. I will also try to sort out the pictures by individuals as there are 7 total "shiners" and I suspect at least 2 species.

...I thought it was 8 dorsal rays that characterized Notropis sp.....do Luxilus species have 8 dorsal? I agree they have 9 anal...

any thought that one of these could be a "Dusky stripe"? Also, there are tuburcules on the snouts of some of my established fishes that had been diagnosed as "N. boops"...would this be correct for N. boops?

I will get some more pictures that give a clear count of both the Anal and Dorsal fins. I will also try to sort out the pictures by individuals as there are 7 total "shiners" and I suspect at least 2 species.

I don't have my Peterson's Guide with me here in New Jersey, but I do have Fishes of Oklahoma. It says cardinal shiners have 8 rays in the dorsal and pelvic fins and usually 9 in the anal fin. The males have tubercules on the head. Notropis boops has 8 rays in all three sets of fins and males can have tubercules on the head, upper body, and the anterior rays of the dorsal, pectoral, and anal fins. The things that really make me think it is a cardinal are the fact that the lateral stripe is pretty wide and you can see some red starting to come in on the underside of the fish.

Cardinal shiners used to be considered duskystripe shiners until they were split several years ago, so you are probably looking at old range maps from before the split. Duskystripes are only in Missouri and Arkansas now.

Hope that helps.

Edited by Etheostoma, 05 April 2008 - 03:10 PM.

Cardinal shiners used to be considered duskystripe shiners until they were split several years ago, so you are probably looking at old range maps from before the split. Duskystripes are only in Missouri and Arkansas now.

Hope that helps.

I'm actually looking at a number of older stream surveys...Your information actually clears up some confusion between the two reports as one of the notes was that there was some confusion regarding the presence and lack of presence in Duskystripes, Cardinals and Bigeyes in the creek from survey to survey...I believe it can now be attributed to the taxonomic confusion and possible mis-diagnosis of collected samples...The author had previously chalked up the inconsistency to stream levels/flow/rain...however I want to look at the reports again in the light of the taxonomic revision and see if it makes more sense.

Thank You very much! More pictures later.

Fish #1...This is one I'm pretty sure is not what I thought it was:

I count 9 spines on minnow #3 and I think I see 9 on #1, but it's a little harder. Minnow #2 is not so easy. You should definitely seek out a second opinion to make sure, because I don't do this as often as some.

I count 9 spines on minnow #3

Agreed, I have a count of: 8 dorsal and 9 anal on #3

So Notropis rubellus "Rosyface" (8 dorsal, 9-11 anal), Luxilus cardinalis "Cardinal" (??? dorsal, 9anal) or Luxilus pilsbryi
"Duskystripe" (??? dorsal, 9anal)

As to the exact range of the "Duskystripe" Luxilus pilsbryi you must remember that this is VERY north eastern Oklahoma and the stream these came from is classified as an "Ozark River" so I think it is possible that L. pilsbryi may be present in the stream. The 1994 Stream survey I have doesn't use scientific names...?!?!?!?(I was a little shocked by this...if I'm not mistaken, good money was spent on these reports...anyway...I need to get them online for the SCC like I said would...but that's a whole'nother story...)

http://www.nanfa.org...dingdusky.shtml

According to Peterson's guide, L. cardinalis and L. pilsbryi differ in that the black stripe DOES NOT extend below the lateral line in pilsbryi but DOES in cardinalis.

Based on this I believe #3 to be a L. cardinalis based on anal ray count and the extension of the black stripe below the lateral line of the fish.

Edited by Seedy, 06 April 2008 - 04:46 PM.

The lateral stripe on minnow #3 does extend below the lateral line, and the Luxilus in the Neosho drainage are definitely L. cardinalis. I don't have the paper originally describing the species, but here is a paper from the Oklahoma Academy of Science detailing the change (look on page 5, number 9):

http://digital.libra...df/v68/p1_8.pdf

Edited by Etheostoma, 06 April 2008 - 05:59 PM.

Ok, thank you...It looks like I was wrong about #3 being N. boops as it was one from a prior collecting trip.

Do you think #1 is a "Cardinal" too?

Ok, thank you...It looks like I was wrong about #3 being N. boops as it was one from a prior collecting trip.

Do you think #1 is a "Cardinal" too?

I do think #1 is a cardinal and #2 might be also, but it is hard to tell from the picture. One solution is to just wait and see if they color up as the water gets warmer.