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Obtaining a collecting permit for hobby collecting / keeping of natives?


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#1 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:23 AM

Alright, I got all fired up by discussion on the topic I started here this morning: http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=4471

My situation is that I live in Vermont -- a state where there's a list of only 10 or so allowed "baitfish", and no other fish may be collected and kept alive. The situation is even worse now with VHS:
Summary of Emergency Rules on baitfish (PDF): http://tinyurl.com/6lb3l2
Actual Emergency Rules on baitfish statute (this is VT -- they write our laws readable here): http://www.vtfishand...-2007-10-19.pdf

What this boils down to is that *all* collecting/transporting of live fish in Vermont is illegal. You can't even collect baitfish on the same body of water you intend to use them on -- you have to buy them from a dealer, and they issue a 48 hour possession permit. I'm wondering if this means that I won't even be able to poke around with a net this Spring/Summer without getting in trouble... This is all supposed to be temporary -- they put in emergency rules to give themselves time to figure out how VHS is going to play out, and to give time to re-write the pre-existing rules to take it into account. I love how this kind of thing happens only *after* a specific threat has been identified, but that's not the point of this thread.

Once this VHS thing sorts itself out, there's still almost no chance that I'll be allowed to collect and keep anything other than the specifically-identified "baitfish". I'd like to apply for a permit to be able to do more. My academic background is conservation biology, but I'm currently a web developer and this is *only* a hobby for me. Have others outside of the scientific community sucessfully applied for and obtained permits to collect and keep native fish as a hobby? I know the rules will vary dramatically by state, but I'm looking for general info here -- what worked for you, what didn't, how did you eventually persuade them to give you a permit (assuming anyone has ever actually gotten one). The only avenue that seems at all viable in VT is to get a baitfish dealer permit, but that still limits you to very specific species.

I often hear vague references to "getting a permit" on this Forum, but don't recall actually seeing specifics of how that has worked for someone outside of the profession and with no institutional connections. Do people *really* manage to get permits to do this just as a hobby?

Thanks in advance, Jase

Edited by jase, 05 April 2008 - 11:04 AM.


#2 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:27 AM

If this turns into an informative thread, I'd love to see mods pin it here. There's state-specific stuff elsewhere, but I don't see any good general info. If we're all supposed to be 100% legal, there needs to be more easily-found info on this forum on how to *become* legal.

Cheers, Jase

#3 Guest_diburning_*

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 02:48 PM

The permits that people speak of on these forums can be one of many things. It could be a USDA Educator's permit which would allow people to keep certain restricted species (such as crocadilians).

It could also be a permit to sell live fish.

Check your state's laws. Some states explicitly say that they do not issue permits for the purpose of keeping native fauna as pets. My permit has a list of fish that I can and cannot sell. Most are bait species.

#4 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 04:55 PM

Scientific and educational permits are sometimes obtainable by non professionals. There are several people around here that have obtained them. I think the most important thing to do is to establish a relationship with the right person or people.
Often a bait dealers or aquaculture license will allow you greater flexibility.

#5 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 09:12 PM

I have two scientific collection permits from the State of Michigan. It was a pretty straight forward process of obtaining them. In our case, you need to specify at least in general, your goals, and the final disposition of the fish. At the end of the year, you MUST write up and submit a report of your activities for that year. If you fail to do this, you will NOT be issued another permit.
Our permits are for specific species on "relatively" specific waters, although in my case I left things fairly open by asking for "watersheds" instead of individual streams in several cases. I applied for several species of darters primarily, as well as some such as grass pickerell, as those were the fish not already covered in Michigan by "bait" laws. I did not see any limit to the number of species or waters you could request..but given that you have to list them individually, I opted just for a handfull of species that were of greatest interest to me.
With the advent of VHS, I may go ahead and add some shiners and things, just to keep myself on the up and up should I decide I need more of those(and with a planned 125 gallon slack water in the works..I may!.
The main advantage for me was this allows me to collect(and keep certain species) on a number of designated trout streams(I listed them specifically, and every one was approved), that otherwise, I could not have legally sampled on(not that it would likely have caused a problem..as all during my youth, we caught crayfish and "bait minnows" on some of these very streams, with seines..and we even had the DNR stop just to see what we were getting!).
I don't know if any of this is of any help to you in Vermont, but you may start by going to your DNR's website and seeing if they offer a science/research collection permit.

#6 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 08:44 AM

I have two scientific collection permits from the State of Michigan. It was a pretty straight forward process of obtaining them.

Thanks, Nightwing. Very cool to know that someone has actually done this!

I do imagine that things will be tougher in VT because everything is so much smaller and budgets are tighter, but worth a shot!

Cheers, Jase

#7 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 08:47 AM

In our case, you need to specify at least in general, your goals, and the final disposition of the fish. At the end of the year, you MUST write up and submit a report of your activities for that year. If you fail to do this, you will NOT be issued another permit.

So what did you list as your goals? That's the tricky part. Although I might get a little more scientific in the future, my goals right now are basically "keep awesome native fish in an aquarium". I have a hard time seeing that fly...

Cheers, Jase

#8 Guest_uniseine_*

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 12:24 PM

If this turns into an informative thread, I'd love to see mods pin it here. There's state-specific stuff elsewhere, but I don't see any good general info. If we're all supposed to be 100% legal, there needs to be more easily-found info on this forum on how to *become* legal.

Cheers, Jase


Jase is right - goals are important.

And legality is only one part of the NANFA mission and Code of Ethics.

#9 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 06:06 PM

Photography is a noble and easily obtainable goal.

#10 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 09:20 PM

So what did you list as your goals? That's the tricky part. Although I might get a little more scientific in the future, my goals right now are basically "keep awesome native fish in an aquarium". I have a hard time seeing that fly...

Cheers, Jase

Actually, "captive husbandry of several darter species" WAS one of the goals I outlined! I asked for up to 2 dozen of several species, and was granted everything I asked for.
I also outlined a desire to document relative abundance of several known species in question over the course of the year(and in different waterways), document the potential population of greenside darters in local streams(after the discovery of a possible population of them well outside of their traditional area here in MI), and generate a list of sampled species in specific locations and times. I will use a GPS to fix exact locations for any "unusual" species(indeed..my plan is to use gps points for any location I sample). At the end of the year, I will put together a report outlining my findings over the summer, hopefully expanding the knowledge of what exactly is IN our local streams, and again..possibly expanding the know area of habitation for greensides. I went into a bit greater detail in my app,l but that's it in a nutshell.
I will likely hit the "greenside stream" for the first time tomorrow, as the ice is finally off of it.

#11 Guest_smilingfrog_*

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:03 AM

Hi Jase,
Something that might give you a little advantage would be if you approached the DNR from the standpoint of being a member of NANFA. Tell them you are a member and would like to organize NANFA outings to certain local areas to introduce other members to the local fauna. Explain what NANFA is and ask if it would be possible to obtain permit(s) that would allow yourself and other members present to collect. This may limit you to certain streams/lakes, times of year, etc... and may also put restrictions on how many/what may be collected. There would be an educational aspect to this which is why I say it might give you an advantage.
Of course this would mean you would have the additional responsibility of organizing the outings, and writing up reports on what was collected.
If you do choose to go this route, it would probably also be useful to have a specific contact in the DNR to speak with. If you just go to their website and click the "contact us" tab you'll likely get a generic reply about "due to VHS no permits are being issued at this time" or something like that. It might also be useful to get an idea of how many Vermont area members would be interested in going on such an outing and presenting that when you are speaking with the DNR person, if they see that there is serious interest they may be less likely to dismiss it.
Hope this helps.

#12 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:32 PM

I'm bumping a really old thread because I just realized I never followed up...

Back in May, 2008, I found the contact person who's responsible for non-game fish within the Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife. I then wrote an email asking what sort of collecting permits might be available to a hobbyist in Vermont, copied below.

Thanks for the reply, {name removed}. I wanted to connect with you to inquire about the possibility and process for obtaining a permit that would allow me to collect and maintain VT native non-game fish for educational and hobby purposes. (Or even if such a permit even existsin VT -- it does in many other states).

I've been a member of the North American Native Fishes Association (NANFA, http://www.nanfa.org/mission.shtml) for several years, and really believe in their stated mission of increasing conservation interest in non-game species through increased awareness of what those species are and how they fit in the ecosystems where they are found. As is the case most anywhere, I'm sure most VT anglers (and perhaps even many VT game wardens) have never even heard of some of our really interesting non-game and non-bait species like brook sticklebacks, darters, grass pickerel, etc. This is true of fish more than any other group, simply because most people will rarely, if ever, encounter these species.

I'm certain things have changed dramatically since VHS came on the scene, but I'd like to find out what sort of special collecting / captive permits might be available, and how one might go about obtaining them. Please feel free to respond by email if you'd like, or I'm happy to give you a call sometime this week or next if that's more convenient for you.


It wasn't until mid-June, 2008 that I got a reply, this time from the Director of Fisheries within VT Fish & Wildlife. I assume they would not mind me reprinting this answer, but I've removed the name even so:

Hello Jase,

Your question has generated some lively discussion within our department. My apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

We certainly appreciate you coming to us directly to ask about permits for this non-game fish collection activity. Unfortunately, no permit exists which would explicitly allow this activity, and there are several statutes and regulations that prohibit the collection, possession and transport of live fish in Vermont.

While we believe that what you are proposing can be environmentally benign and may have educational benefits, you do not meet the criteria for being a bait dealer, commercial fish propagator or educational institution, so our narrowly defined fish collection and transport permits would not apply.

Due to long standing concerns about the movement of exotic species, and new concerns about fish diseases such as VHS, we have tightened the regulations on moving live fish collected from the wild.

Please feel free to call me if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
{name removed}


So... sounds as if I may have been the first person ever to ask this sort of question in Vermont, and the reply was gracious but fairly clear "No". This was in the weeks before we closed on a new house, so my attention was diverted elsewhere and I never followed up any further. At least in VT, it seems like the only viable option would be to somehow partner up with an educational organization. The tone of the message maybe at least gives a glimmer of hope that even though there's no applicable permit now, they wouldn't necessarily be against creating one in the future if there was enough demand.



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