Hello I am from Western KY and new to the site. After viewing several posts I realize just how poor my picture is so I will not require any reprimands along those lines ( if it makes you feel better though go ahead :). I suppose that I am not alone in the dream of finding a previosly onknown species of...well anything, but in my case a fish and more exactly a darter. A darter captured, photographed and safely released back into the pond runoff in Western KY near Madisonville.
I may have stumbled onto the answer to my identification problem through one of your members posts and wish I remembered where I saw it so that I could thank him or at least reference he or she here, for possible picture comparisons if nothing else. All help in identification is appreciated, though it will burst my dream of the previously unknown species thingy.
I was a little surprised at the darter find because it was on my property that has (2) 5 acre ponds that receive no water other than from local runnoff or ground water. No creeks even at flood levels. The ponds spill out into a wooded area , a creek of sorts that is all but dry, especially after last years drought that left it completely dry, and this is where it was found. That leaves three possibilities of its origins. 1. It made an almost impossible trip from the Pond River into my tail waters. 2. It came from one of my ponds possibly entering in with dumped minnows. 3. Carefully carried by local Blue Herons or another equally quallified critter. Still open to other possibilities here too.
Sorry for rambling but I feel this could be necessary information reguarding its location, range etc.
The closest comparison I have found on this site was an Emerald Darter. Though there were some slight differences.
Identification of darter
Started by
Guest_BoJones_*
, Apr 14 2008 12:59 PM
24 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_ashtonmj_*
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 06:41 PM
Looks like a slough darter, Etheostoma gracile, to me.
#3
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 07:21 PM
That it does. I didn't realize they got so far into the Highland Rim up in Kentucky, but it makes sense. Pond River drainage is pretty swampy in places, and there are other Coastal Plain critters up there (e.g. bird-voiced treefrogs).
#4
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:01 PM
Tinsel blue slough darter? You gotta git back to TN, son. 
I'm pretty sure its one of the E. stigmaeum complex, what's now called the bluegrass darter.
You'd be surprised what they'll swim up during "feast", and where they'll live during "famine". There are also a heckuva a lot of solution holes for them to come through. That whole segment there along the Parkway is divine. Is the geology there outwash from Glacial Lake Tight draining? I need to find a good KY geology book.
I've gotten a recent interest in the Pond, Tradewater and Red. I have a hypothesis this E. blennoides question is answered in Hopkinsville, KY. I can't say a whole lot more, I have to live with someone who WILL sue, but won't run any more samples. Please, someone pick up this tip and solve this question!
Todd
I'm pretty sure its one of the E. stigmaeum complex, what's now called the bluegrass darter.
You'd be surprised what they'll swim up during "feast", and where they'll live during "famine". There are also a heckuva a lot of solution holes for them to come through. That whole segment there along the Parkway is divine. Is the geology there outwash from Glacial Lake Tight draining? I need to find a good KY geology book.
I've gotten a recent interest in the Pond, Tradewater and Red. I have a hypothesis this E. blennoides question is answered in Hopkinsville, KY. I can't say a whole lot more, I have to live with someone who WILL sue, but won't run any more samples. Please, someone pick up this tip and solve this question!
Todd
#5
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:03 PM
I'm 45 minutes from Hoptown, but I'm kinda dense. Gimme more hints!
Besides, I thought E. stigmaeum had dorsal and lateral marking contiguous?
Besides, I thought E. stigmaeum had dorsal and lateral marking contiguous?
Edited by Newt, 14 April 2008 - 09:05 PM.
#6
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:47 PM
I think it looks like a slough darter as well, but bluegrass darter may be possible. Bluegrass darter should only have around 6 saddles. I am counting 9 or 10. Could you get a better photo?
#7
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 10:28 PM
I think your right Matt, I see too many saddles for it to be a bluegrass, I think it is a slough darter.
#8
Guest_ashtonmj_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 06:10 AM
That is exactly why I decided on slough darter. I sat down with the bible, I mean Etnier and Starnes and examined what I could. The number of saddles, how they are connected/disconnected, the patch of color on the cadaul peduncle, snout, and especially that horizonatl eye bar moved me away from a stigmaeum pretty quickly. I've seen or collected most of the members except the ones in KY and for this time of year a stigmaeum should be blown up in full color with solid blue bars.
#9
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 07:38 AM
I'm not going to argue a with that, Phil has my books. I see what you mean about the banding.
http://www.webcityof...fpw3.asp?IID=50
I just don't recall there being any of that "tinsel blue" on anything other than the stigmaeum clade. But again, that's where I should quit ID'ing things without lookin' in a book first
Todd
http://www.webcityof...fpw3.asp?IID=50
I just don't recall there being any of that "tinsel blue" on anything other than the stigmaeum clade. But again, that's where I should quit ID'ing things without lookin' in a book first
Todd
#10
Guest_bpkeck_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 08:29 AM
I'd say slough darter, Etheostoma gracile, as well. Nice little critter to see in color like that. I've only really come across ones with a little color and not in full breeding dress.
#11
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:08 AM
That blue may be a photographic artifact, or it may even be your monitor. It looks pretty green to me.
#12
Guest_BoJones_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 12:05 PM
Thanks Everyone for their comments,
Before the recent find I had no idea how many darters and how specific their ranges can be. They are a very impressive species and not just for their beautiful colors. I definitely noticed an "attitude" in the darter, that made him stand out from other minnow types. Don't bother asking for an explaination I know it sounds funny but he acted like he was mad to have been caught.
It has taken me a bit of time looking up all of the suggestions that have been mentioned in your replies. When I Googled Images for Etheostoma gracile I saw a picture of a darter labeled "Backwater Darter" Etheostoma zonifer found on www.Outdoor alabama.com that looks like a match. Possible? I know my two days of internet research does not make me a biologist (actually a mining engineer) and I actually had trouble finding a good picture of the Slough Darter so my opinion means even less.
The first picture I took was actually a short movie because I had not checked my camera setting, I know everyone is surprised by that after seeing the great quality of my photos.
Thanks again this continues to very enlightening.
When I entered into gallery on this site my searches always came back empty. Any clues?
Before the recent find I had no idea how many darters and how specific their ranges can be. They are a very impressive species and not just for their beautiful colors. I definitely noticed an "attitude" in the darter, that made him stand out from other minnow types. Don't bother asking for an explaination I know it sounds funny but he acted like he was mad to have been caught.
It has taken me a bit of time looking up all of the suggestions that have been mentioned in your replies. When I Googled Images for Etheostoma gracile I saw a picture of a darter labeled "Backwater Darter" Etheostoma zonifer found on www.Outdoor alabama.com that looks like a match. Possible? I know my two days of internet research does not make me a biologist (actually a mining engineer) and I actually had trouble finding a good picture of the Slough Darter so my opinion means even less.
The first picture I took was actually a short movie because I had not checked my camera setting, I know everyone is surprised by that after seeing the great quality of my photos.
Thanks again this continues to very enlightening.
When I entered into gallery on this site my searches always came back empty. Any clues?
#13
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 12:35 PM
E. zonifer is a very similar-looking (almost physically identical) species to E. gracile, but it only occurs in parts of the Mobile Bay drainage in MS, AL, and GA. It would be very surprising if your fish were a backwater darter.
#14
Guest_BoJones_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 04:35 PM
Thanks Newt, I did not check the Backwater Darter range. Great job on the new aquarium I too look forward to seeing the finished results.
Farmertodd thanks for the link that is an excellent picture of the E. gracile. The base color does not look right but I understand the mating colors do change.
Is there any other pictures of a slough darter with the colors more like the Backwater?
I think everyone may be too focused on what species should be at this location, I agree with Newt on the Backwater Darter differences with the one I caught, on a closer look the Backwater has black or dark grey on both the first big fin on its back and on two of its belly fins. Sorry for getting too technical.
Thanks Skipjack, Sometimes I overlook the obvious. I am going back to try to catch another for better pictures and this time I will check the quality of the pictures before I release it.
The spots looked bluegreen to me hopefully better quality pictures will solve that question too.
Farmertodd thanks for the link that is an excellent picture of the E. gracile. The base color does not look right but I understand the mating colors do change.
Is there any other pictures of a slough darter with the colors more like the Backwater?
I think everyone may be too focused on what species should be at this location, I agree with Newt on the Backwater Darter differences with the one I caught, on a closer look the Backwater has black or dark grey on both the first big fin on its back and on two of its belly fins. Sorry for getting too technical.
Thanks Skipjack, Sometimes I overlook the obvious. I am going back to try to catch another for better pictures and this time I will check the quality of the pictures before I release it.
The spots looked bluegreen to me hopefully better quality pictures will solve that question too.
#15
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 04:46 PM
See if you can find a copy of Etnier and Starnes' Fishes of Tennessee at your local library. It has a good shot of E. gracile in breeding colors. Unfortunately Kentucky doesn't have a recent "fishes of" book (as far as I know) and the most recent one, by William Clay, is 30-odd years old and illustrated with rather unhelpful black and white photos.
Location is incredibly important in identifying fish. Species don't just jump around; drainage fidelity is very high, especially in small low-vagility species like darters. Introductions are always possible, but darters are uncommon in bait-bucket or deliberate introductions. Also remember that all fish species are variable; you can't make broad conclusions about a species' coloration based on a photo or two.
*EDIT* Oh, and thanks for the compliments on the tank! I had hoped to get some more of the renovation pics up, but the photographer is off to the ASB meeting this week (lucky stiff!), so it'll be a while longer.
Location is incredibly important in identifying fish. Species don't just jump around; drainage fidelity is very high, especially in small low-vagility species like darters. Introductions are always possible, but darters are uncommon in bait-bucket or deliberate introductions. Also remember that all fish species are variable; you can't make broad conclusions about a species' coloration based on a photo or two.
*EDIT* Oh, and thanks for the compliments on the tank! I had hoped to get some more of the renovation pics up, but the photographer is off to the ASB meeting this week (lucky stiff!), so it'll be a while longer.
Edited by Newt, 15 April 2008 - 04:48 PM.
#16
Guest_bpkeck_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 06:55 PM
The picture in Etnier's book is pretty good and the colors are fairly similar. There's always the chance for odd new distributional records for things outside (way outside) their ranges, but a color morph or 'interesting' population of E. gracile is more likely. An Etnierism is appropriate here "Just because it looks like a insert species name here, doesn't mean it's not."
Unfortunately, Newt is right that there is no current KY reference book; the distributional atlas by Brooks Burr and Mel Warren (1986) published by KY Nature Preserves Commission is occasionally available for around $30 and up, but it doesn't have any pictures. It's rumored that a new and improved version is in the works, but I've been hearing that for 8 yrs or so.
Ben
Unfortunately, Newt is right that there is no current KY reference book; the distributional atlas by Brooks Burr and Mel Warren (1986) published by KY Nature Preserves Commission is occasionally available for around $30 and up, but it doesn't have any pictures. It's rumored that a new and improved version is in the works, but I've been hearing that for 8 yrs or so.
Ben
#17
Guest_BoJones_*
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 09:52 PM
While netting the creek again this evening the muddy waters became clearer allowing me to see how dumb my statement " About focusing on the location instead of the fish" really was! The only thing more dumb would be me going to a forum asking for help and then question the results of the experts in a field that I know nothing about. See my point, the water is a lot clearer where I am now.
Newt and Ben thanks for the tolerance. Slough Darter it is!
A funny colored one. Just joking
Newt and Ben thanks for the tolerance. Slough Darter it is!
A funny colored one. Just joking
#18
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 16 April 2008 - 10:11 AM
Haha! I'm hardly an expert. And no harm done.
#19
Guest_JohnO_*
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Posted 30 April 2008 - 02:15 PM
KY Fish&Game has a pretty extensive listing of all endemic fish on their site, but the photos are all google, so it's hit or miss. It's an impressive list of darters, I never knew so many varieties existed. I have got to get up to the Cumberland area soon and see what can be found. All I'm getting right now are rainbows and fantails.
#20
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:12 AM
Yes, that blue is correct for the slough darter. I've seen several that way from KY, TN and AR. Also the distinct red dorsal band. It's really kind of a blue-green.
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