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Need advice..Colorado doesnt allow natives to be kept in captivity

Started by Guest_brian1973_* , Apr 22 2008 06:50 PM

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#1 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 06:50 PM

I emailed Colorado DOW on Sunday about the legal aspect of keeping natives, they responded to my email today. Below is a copy of that response

Hi Brian,
We do not allow fish to be taken alive, transported and kept in aquariums. We are concerned these fish may be released into water where they may be harmful to existing fish
or the habitat.
Thank you
Bob Fisher
Colorado Divison of Wildlife
6060 Broadway
Denver CO 80216

While I understand this view point it is more likely the impulse tropical buyer will release that Pacu or or any other large fish, this is more dangerous to our local waters in my opinion . so below is my response plase let me know what you think before I send it.

Thank you for your response, I have a couple more questions if you could answer them I would greatly appreciate it. I understand that concern, so how would a private individual obtain a permit that would allow me to keep native species? I have kept common tropicals and quite frankly I am more intrigued and i believe my children would benefit more from observing the behavior of native sunfish, darters, minnows etc.. I think the fact I researched the law and asked for clearification on keeping these fish shows that I am responsible and ethical. I can not teach my children to respect wildlife and the laws pertaining to wildlife if I do not set the example. Like I said I understand that concern but seems illogical given that it would be more likely the common impulsive fish buyer that has no idea what he has really purchased buys a PACU or an Oscar or even the common goldfish and when that fish gets to large they dump them. I am sure you see the point of that as well.
Once again thank you for taking the time to assist me with my questions.

Any suggestions editorial comments??

Thanks in advance

Brian

#2 Guest_fishtanker_*

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:13 PM

Brian,

I'm not sure what to do, I might direct you to the Local Edition (West)
http://forum.nanfa.o...p?showforum=138
and see if there are any other members in CO and see if they have found any loopholes. Good Luck, I wish I could be more help
Rick

#3 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:30 PM

Brian,

I'm not sure what to do, I might direct you to the Local Edition (West)
http://forum.nanfa.o...p?showforum=138
and see if there are any other members in CO and see if they have found any loopholes. Good Luck, I wish I could be more help
Rick

I appreciate your answer if you read my introduction from a couple days ago, http://forum.nanfa.o...amp;#entry36396 either no one is in this area or the people that are dont check in regularly..the western region board is fairly dead in the amount of post.

#4 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:56 PM

Brian, first welcome to NANFA, as I missed welcoming you in your other thread.

As Dave said, we are lacking in membership west of the Mississippi but we do have some members that are doing just what you are doing. In fact, we have members that aren't even in the US. It will be good to get a definitive answer from the DOW as to how they stand and if they are thinking of changing their thought mentality.

I would see if there is a way for you to get a permit to do what you have stated. I have a feeling that they will tell you that the tropical fish can't live year around in CO so that is why they still allow them. I'm not sure if DOW will be the right place but you should also inquire about the importation of native species as there are other ways of obtaining some fish species.

#5 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:29 PM

One thing I havent questioned yet is the fact that catching/keeping and releasing certain native herps is LEGAL, there are a few conditions that have to be met for the releasing them to be legal but if I have a wild caught non native herp that may be carring a disease then infecting a native herp is pretty high, I may still contaminate water sources and any animal that comes into contact with the released herp. So I have to ask what the difference is?

Here is where my loophole may be, as Dave pointed out anything south of 26N latitude is considerd subtropical, 26N is slightly south of Corpus Christi Texas, My wife is from port isabel which is about 160 mles south of CC well into the 26N zone ,so I may not be able to keep colorado natives but unless they specifically give species that can not be kept, which is in a different Reg, I may be able to obtain natives from south texas and florida. That is were the question of importing them comes in.

#6 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 06:27 AM

One thing to consider is to explore the bait laws in your state. You may be allowed to collect your own bait for fishing. I doubt the law will specify that bait can not be held in rectangular glass containers. :wink:

Most likely the list of bait species will be short and none too exciting but at least you could do some collecting and maintaining of native fish.
Another thing to consider is aquiring native fish legally from board members outside of Co. I for one would be glad to send you some sunfish or minnows as long as it was legal for you to possess them.

#7 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 02:20 PM

We do not allow fish to be taken alive, transported and kept in aquariums. We are concerned these fish may be released into water where they may be harmful to existing fish
or the habitat.

I note that his email says "taken alive". So... if you purchase them, they are not "taken". I realize that purchasing isn't nearly as fun, but sometimes you have to settle. Find out what the current regulations are about keeping tropical and goldfish (or other exotic cold water fish). Purchased North American cold water fish may fit into the same category. Heck, I'm sure the pet stores are permitted sell sailfin mollies and flagfish! Figure out what makes it legal to do that, and it may also make purchasing other fish legal as well.

Good luck. If you succeed, you will find it well worth the effort!

#8 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 06:20 PM

I note that his email says "taken alive". So... if you purchase them, they are not "taken". I realize that purchasing isn't nearly as fun, but sometimes you have to settle. Find out what the current regulations are about keeping tropical and goldfish (or other exotic cold water fish). Purchased North American cold water fish may fit into the same category. Heck, I'm sure the pet stores are permitted sell sailfin mollies and flagfish! Figure out what makes it legal to do that, and it may also make purchasing other fish legal as well.

Good luck. If you succeed, you will find it well worth the effort!

I know that native fish such as flagfish and mollies are legal because they are found below 26N latitude, which is where the "sub tropical" zone begins.

Mike,
Colorado restricts baitfish to the lake they are caught in, so I can legally catch baitfish but can not move them from that location,unless you are a commercial dealer. But I can buy minnow's at a petshop or bait store for use as feeders or bait, so if these arent native then I am taking a minnow collected and shipped into colorado and introducing any disease or illness that it may have, this is why these laws make no sense. These same petstores can sell channel catfish which are native, the sell piranha whch are on the banned list.

The DOW sell's bait in the state parks marina, they sell full grown tiger salamanders which they say are illegal in the fishing regs...go figure.

#9 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 06:28 PM

This is all an example of how intrusive our government has become. We need explicit permission from them to do activities with animals which one would think were public domain. And we have become so used to it that we shrug our shoulders and say, "go figure". And these laws will not prevent ignorant activities. For that we need education, which should in theory make the laws moot.

That's all I have to say about that.

Edited by Irate Mormon, 23 April 2008 - 06:29 PM.

#10 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 07:46 PM

This is all an example of how intrusive our government has become. We need explicit permission from them to do activities with animals which one would think were public domain. And we have become so used to it that we shrug our shoulders and say, "go figure". And these laws will not prevent ignorant activities. For that we need education, which should in theory make the laws moot.

That's all I have to say about that.

Irate,
Maybe I took you reply wrong but if you think I am saying "go figure" as me giving up then I need to fill you in on a few things, I speak my mind like it or not, but I also know when to be tactful and telling the DOW how stupid and ignorant there law's are will do more harm than good at this point. I spent the money to join a group that specializes in something that is illegal in my state, why would I bother doing that if I was just sitting back and shrugging my shoulders, heck even if i was to decide to do it illegally it has been said on this forum if you speak of breaking state laws you will be reported it doesnt matter how ignorant the law seems NANFA supports and will adhere to state laws so I would still be wasting my money because I sure couldnt ask any questions, not to mention setting the bad example for my kids that we can choose which laws we follow. Last, I sure as heck wouldnt be contacting the state to find out specifics and questioning the way they think if i was just sitting back and letting it go. I agree that these fish are/ should be public domain but unfortunately that dosnt change he fact that it is illegal. We have to ask specifics because breaking wildlife laws rather knowingly or by mistake is unethical, and can be very costly.

I am saying "go figure" because it's BS that corporate america and govt. offices can break the laws that I must abide by. I have contacted DOW again and have yet to recieve a response. I want it in writing (email) saying that I absolutely can or can not buy either a permit or Natives from out of state vendors. If I can purchase a permit I will do so and still fight this issue.

Unfortunately I have seen no other members from Colorado speak up so I am guessing there are none or very few that dont bother to stop in the forum, the sad fact is one voice or opinion doesnt change laws, I can start the ball rolling but I need others to keep it going.

I am waiting a response from the coordinator for the regional reps so I can fill the position of the rep or a contact in Colorado, I am raising the BS flag with DOW and I am persistant but without backing and people then my voice will go unheard.

Thanks
Brian

Edited by brian1973, 23 April 2008 - 07:58 PM.

#11 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 09:57 AM

That's a collective shrug - I'm well aware that many of our members are mad as hell about senseless laws such as this. To me it's part of a bigger picture that I find very alarming, but doesn't seem to bother most people or even show up on their radar. But I don't wish to go into my wacko political theories here!

Best of luck with your efforts.

#12 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 06:05 PM

That's a collective shrug - I'm well aware that many of our members are mad as hell about senseless laws such as this. To me it's part of a bigger picture that I find very alarming, but doesn't seem to bother most people or even show up on their radar. But I don't wish to go into my wacko political theories here!

Best of luck with your efforts.

My apoligizes Irate, I kinda figured that but it is easy to misinterpret post's, I know we are on the same team, if you care to discuss those theories PM me, I pay over 50 to fish and hunt small game here, they implemented a Wildlife managment area permit that I have to pay for,twice if I big game hunt. It seems the only people supprting the "COLORADO GREAT OUTDOORS" are the hunters and fisherman, where is that lottery money going? I just get fired up and now I am even more ticked as it has been 2 days with no reply to my email, how hard is it say yes or no on the permit, Now maybe he is trying to find out more info for me but I doubt it. Looks like I will be ignored, unfortunately I will be out of town for 2 weeks starting sunday and I am not sure if I will have internet access, so I may have to wat until beginning of may before I can follow up on this. So if no reply when I return I will send another email and also send this to my area state senate rep.
Thanks for the info on the Colorado Members.

Edited by brian1973, 24 April 2008 - 06:06 PM.

#13 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 10:44 PM

I wouldn't assume at this point that you're being dismissed out of hand - the guy probably has a lot on his plate, and the question you posed may involve him talking to a bunch of other folks. Here in MS, the law isn't terribly restrictive, but there are _some_ things that don't make sense. A lot of the movers and shakers within the DWP (our version of WOP or whatever you called it) are affiliated with the MS Museum of Natural Science, and I have had conversations with many of them. They are in fact sympathetic to aquarists in general and NANFA in particular. We also have some respected members of the scientific community here who are card-carrying NANFA members. Those personal relationships are important, and that's something you don't get from email.

What I'm saying is, make friends, THEN influence people. Or something like that. The first part is the most important and ultimately the most rewarding.

Chris, can you send Brian a current list of NANFA members in CO.?

#14 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 11:10 PM

I have been ignored by DOW before with questions on herps so it is the history with them that gives me reason to believe I will be ignored. I do have some friends in the local zoo's from when I attended college for zookeeping, unfortunately I was unabe to finish school due to national guard commitments after 9/11 so I havent talked to them in years but hopefully I can stil get in touch with them, I may be able to gain some support there. I am going to give him a while to respond if I hear nothing from them by the time I come back then I will take it further. Even a permit allowing me to keep them is a step forward.
Brian

#15 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 09:30 AM

I was thinking about you while gardening last night and had a couple thoughts that might prove fruitful:

1) What would it take to get a commercial bait collector permit? Is it expensive? I know of a couple people who maintain commercial permits so they can sell native fish to support thier hobby (read, KSI Aquatics). Not sure what your state would have.

2) Is there a Bass Pro Shops or other such outdoors store in your state that keeps one of those huge aquariums? How are they able to do it? If you talk to the caretaker, he may know just the right guy at DOW to talk to.

#16 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 06:16 PM

I was thinking about you while gardening last night and had a couple thoughts that might prove fruitful:

1) What would it take to get a commercial bait collector permit? Is it expensive? I know of a couple people who maintain commercial permits so they can sell native fish to support thier hobby (read, KSI Aquatics). Not sure what your state would have.

2) Is there a Bass Pro Shops or other such outdoors store in your state that keeps one of those huge aquariums? How are they able to do it? If you talk to the caretaker, he may know just the right guy at DOW to talk to.

There is a bass pro shops in Denver..I didnt think about that. I would guess it is considered a wildlife park under the colorado laws but I will research this. There is a permit for bait sellers, I will look into it.

#17 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:04 PM

Figured I would give an update since I will be gone for 2 weeks and not sure if i will have any internet access.

Still no reply from DOW.

I did check into the bait dealer option, the license is fairly cheap but this is the allowed comercial fish list.
The only fish species allowed to be taken for commercial use are minnows gizzard shad, white and longnose suckers and carp.

Now for private bait use consist of.
The only fish species allowed to be taken and used for consumption or personal use as bait (either alive or dead) by fishing, seining, netting, trapping, or dipping are minnows, bluegill, hybrid bluegill, carp, sunfish, gizzard shad, sculpin, white and longnose suckers, yellow perch and rainbow smelt. Statewide bag limits apply to sunfish, bluegill, hybrid bluegills and yellow perch.

Now to me it sounds as if I can take these fish alive to be used a a later date for bait. thoughts or opinions on that?

I'm not sure why they use the word "consumption" under the topic of Live bait. They also use the termonology "personal use" which to me means it is ny discrection wat to do with these allowed bait fish.

Edited by brian1973, 26 April 2008 - 02:10 PM.

#18 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:05 PM

Does it say anywhere that fish taken for bait must be used on-site?

#19 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:14 PM

Sorry newt, I was editing when you replied. i can not find anywhere in WRITING that states they must be used on site.

here is the link to the fishing section of the general provisions regulations.
http://wildlife.stat...B390/0/Ch01.pdf

here the link to all general provision regs.
http://wildlife.stat...gs/Regulations/

#20 Guest_brian1973_*

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:20 PM

Another update, I did more digging today and found that the state Ag. department can issue a $100 (annual) aquaculture permit this allows for native fish and also propagation, transporting and selling. The thing is as a hobbiest I do not want to spend $100 a year. I have now emailed th dept. of ag. to inquire about the keeping of natives for the experienced private individuals. I did find contacts of area aquaculturists as well, it seems some of them seem to be individuals.
I will hopefully hear ack from them soon.

Brian