'nother minner

Any ideas on this guy? I counted 8-9 anal fin rays. Amicalola river, Etowah river drainage.

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I wanna say Ironcolor so bad I can't stand it, but I don't think we'll get that lucky.
Is that stripe really orange, or is it actually yellow/gold?
Is the roof of the mouth black?
That spot on the peduncle shouldn't be there for Ironcolor, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
Dusky, Coastal, Weed and Redeye are more likely candidates, but that's just a wild guess based on your guess about anal ray count. If it's 9 you can rule out redeye.

I don't have a Fishes of Georgia book, so I'm going by Alabama books, which could very well be way off for all I know.

Edited by Mysteryman, 27 April 2008 - 01:51 PM.

I wanna say Ironcolor so bad I can't stand it, but I don't think we'll get that lucky.
Is that stripe really orange, or is it actually yellow/gold?
Is the roof of the mouth black?
That spot on the peduncle shouldn't be there for Ironcolor, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
Dusky, Coastal, Weed and Redeye are more likely candidates, but that's just a wild guess based on your guess about anal ray count. If it's 9 you can rule out redeye.

I don't have a Fishes of Georgia book, so I'm going by Alabama books, which could very well be way off for all I know.

It's more of a gold color.
The inside of the mouth?

The picture is not going to fully support any guess beyond Cyprinella sp., but I'm very concerned that it's a blue shiner, Cyprinella caerulea, based on the definition and orientation of the black spot on the caudal peduncle. Tricolor shiner sometimes will also appear this way, but they will not have the strong lines going laterally toward the spot. The spot that falls BELOW the line is the key diagnostic to identifying them underwater since it stand out so prominently. I sincerely hope you released this fish.

http://www.outdooral...er/minnow/blue/

Todd

The picture is not going to fully support any guess beyond Cyprinella sp., but I'm very concerned that it's a blue shiner, Cyprinella caerulea, based on the definition and orientation of the black spot on the caudal peduncle. Tricolor shiner sometimes will also appear this way, but they will not have the strong lines going laterally toward the spot. The spot that falls BELOW the line is the key diagnostic to identifying them underwater since it stand out so prominently. I sincerely hope you released this fish.

http://www.outdooral...er/minnow/blue/

Todd

Yep. He went back with his friends since I didn't know what he was.

The only thing is, there were TONS of them, but if it is a blue shiner, then I guess that's a good thing.

Any possibility of 'bama or Ocmulgee?

The snout shape, mouth position in the pictures as is don't look very Cyprinella like (and I stress in the pictures as is). Scales don't seem very diamond either. If I were to offer a Cyrprinella species up I would go with Alabama before Blue with how intense the caudal spot is and the lack of body depth.

Based on the pictures I'm not sure, but Cyprinella looks good and I wouldn't be suprised by C. caerulea. Those critters are thick where they are... I beleive the common description is locally abundant. I'd expect C. caerulea to have more of a gold/brown color, but I'm guessing lighting and exposure can play funny tricks with that. My first collection this summer was in the Conasauga and we got more C. caerulea there than any year before. I'm not sure if they just had a good year last year or if there just increasing numbers.

Yeah, as Ben says, they're thick where they occurr, so it's misleading. The problem for this species is that they don't occur many places. So you've done well Steve

As for a definate ID, I don't think anyone is going to get much further than genus, and there's even debate about that already

Ben, did you guys see many/any jenkinsi? Man, that is a pretty pretty river.

Todd

If it is a Cyprinella caerulea, then it'll be one of the three threatened/endangered species I found there. The other two were crays, Cambarus fasciatus and Procambarus versutus(not sure about federal status, but it's considered "rare" here in GA).

Sounds like an awesome place. I know I'd love to see more pictures from your trip

Todd

I check other pics of blue but I think the blotch at the tail base seems too big for blue.

Here's a picture of a blue shiner from the Conasauga. The picture in question could be a blue shiner, the jury is still out.
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That caudal spot is huge and should be indicative, but it is instead confounding.

I can see Blue Shiner now that I look again, and I think it even looks a bit blue, but Dusky also really jumps out at me.
The snout just looks wrong for Blue to me, but then it's only a picture.

The dusky, redeye and all those you listed are not in that part of the Coosa watershed. He's way up north of Atlanta. You're talking all below the Fall Line for the most part.

I'm tellin' you guys... You aren't going to get a positive species ID from the pictures he has. You can't even see the tail spot in Bruce's picture, and that's a pretty good picture. Angle of light is too critical. This is why I ain't ever giving a positive ID for a cyprinid photograph ever again

Here's a question that'll work toward some more evidence... Steve were you getting alabama and tricolor shiner at the site? Could you tell those adults apart from this species? Where were you getting this species? In the fast water (riffle or run) or the slow water (pools and slack water adjacent to riffles and runs)?

That's going to tell us more than more digital clutter, I think. Cyprinella has partitioned that environment, and I won't say which way until Steve gets back to us

Todd

The dusky, redeye and all those you listed are not in that part of the Coosa watershed. He's way up north of Atlanta. You're talking all below the Fall Line for the most part.

I'm tellin' you guys... You aren't going to get a positive species ID from the pictures he has. You can't even see the tail spot in Bruce's picture, and that's a pretty good picture. Angle of light is too critical. This is why I ain't ever giving a positive ID for a cyprinid photograph ever again

Here's a question that'll work toward some more evidence... Steve were you getting alabama and tricolor shiner at the site? Could you tell those adults apart from this species? Where were you getting this species? In the fast water (riffle or run) or the slow water (pools and slack water adjacent to riffles and runs)?

That's going to tell us more than more digital clutter, I think. Cyprinella has partitioned that environment, and I won't say which way until Steve gets back to us

Todd

I'll post some pics up of the site ASAP. The forum they're on is undergoing some updates and maintainance right now.

I've got a few other pics of them, but they're on my grandmother's camera, so I wont be able to get them up until this weekend.

As far as other species, this was the most abundant, and the biggest ones seemed to top out at 2.5". I caught one other type of shiner, and some type of dace. I didn't find many other fish though, as I was only collecting in one part of the river for half an hour, and all I had was an aquarium net, since we went up there for a family reunion. The area they were caught in was in the main river; it was atleast 20' wide. I found them in a shallow (1' at the deepest) just downstream from a much deeper area (guessing >/= 4'). They were swimming above a large rock that was about 2 feet across and had lots of smaller rocks on top of it. They travelled in schools(as most minnows do) containing 15-20 fish in each.

How many dorsal rays do blue shiners have? I counted 9 on my minnow in the picture above.

Edited by fishlvr, 28 April 2008 - 05:18 PM.

Could it be a Bluestripe shiner?

If the two pics are of different fish, I'd suggest that #1 could be a blue, but the angle in that photo is just enough off to eliminate a positive ID... I'd lean towards it being Cyprinella callistia, though. But, if the two photos are of the same fish, it's definitely Cyprinella callistia (despite the prominent stripe in the first photo...). The head and body on photo 2 are the wrong shape for C. caerulea -- body too rounded in cx, head too short and blunt; both the mouth shape/orientation/position and that two-tone caudal spot (lighter on front 1/2, darker on back 1/2) are diagnostic.

Be careful out there-- if there's any doubt of the ID, I'd be hesitant to even drop it in a photo tank. Better to err on the side of caution than to wind up in deep trouble with USFWS.

Dave

Edited by daveneely, 28 April 2008 - 07:44 PM.

If the two pics are of different fish, I'd suggest that #1 could be a blue, but the angle in that photo is just enough off to eliminate a positive ID... I'd lean towards it being Cyprinella callistia, though. But, if the two photos are of the same fish, it's definitely Cyprinella callistia (despite the prominent stripe in the first photo...). The head and body on photo 2 are the wrong shape for C. caerulea -- body too rounded in cx, head too short and blunt; both the mouth shape/orientation/position and that two-tone caudal spot (lighter on front 1/2, darker on back 1/2) are diagnostic.

Be careful out there-- if there's any doubt of the ID, I'd be hesitant to even drop it in a photo tank. Better to err on the side of caution than to wind up in deep trouble with USFWS.

Dave

Two pics are of the same fish.

Ok thanks. I'll keep that in mind when I go back up there.

I'm tellin' you guys... You aren't going to get a positive species ID from the pictures he has...

...unless you're Dave Neely

Todd