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Notropis?


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#1 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 10:47 PM

What is this?
Caught from a tributary of the Mackinaw River.

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#2 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 11:07 PM

By general looks I'd guess it's a small Lythrurus genus and the only one in the Mackinaw is Lythrurus umbratilis, Redfin Shiner. I might very well be wrong on the genus so take with a grain of salt.

#3 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 11:21 PM

Aye, I didn't even think of that. There were quite a few larger specimens I thought were red and redfin shiners. I couldn't put positive ids on all them silver things without spawning colors. 8)

#4 Guest_uniseine_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 09:10 AM

By general looks I'd guess it's a small Lythrurus genus and the only one in the Mackinaw is Lythrurus umbratilis, Redfin Shiner. I might very well be wrong on the genus so take with a grain of salt.


What do you generally look for to narrow the ID down to Lythrurus?

#5 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 09:34 AM

What do you generally look for to narrow the ID down to Lythrurus?


All things being local....In Northern Illinois it's quite a bit of elimination. Lythrurus are more compressed than other Cyprinids and that's where I start. Young Cyprinella are thicker in the body and the similarly compressed Notropis (Notropis atherinoides Emerald Shiner & Notropis percobromus Carmine Shiner) are very "silvery", unlike young Lythrurus. I then look at the nape of the fish. Hard to explain but Lythrurus umbratilis have tiny dorsal dots unlike other local Cyprinids. Luxilus are also chunky and their tall scales are apparent at a young age.

#6 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:35 PM

Don't know, but you might want to consider Notemigonus (Golden Shiner) as well.

#7 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:55 PM

Below is a photo of Notemigonus crysoleucas Golden Shiner from a small tributary of the Illinois River in Grundy county last week.

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#8 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:26 PM

Don't know, but you might want to consider Notemigonus (Golden Shiner) as well.

I'm pretty sure that's a Golden shiner as well.

#9 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:29 PM

What do you generally look for to narrow the ID down to Lythrurus?

A black spot at front base of dorsal for one thing.

#10 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:38 PM

A black spot at front base of dorsal for one thing.


At this time of year at this latitude, we catch many young of year (YOY) from the most recent spawn of last year. They don't yet have adult colors and at least my local Lythrurus don't have the telltale dark area at the leading edge of the base of the dorsal at this time of year. I'm guessing his fish is YOY.

Edit to add: Notemigonus crysoleucas have only been sampled once from the Mackinaw back in 1901. But anything is possible since they are a popular bait.

Edited by teleost, 27 May 2008 - 05:46 PM.


#11 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:29 PM

"natureman187"'s fish in the photo above is a Lythrurus species. Look at the mouth compared to the golden shiner, also the pattern and coverage of scales. The black dorsal spot isn't visible in this photo, but it's not always pronounced in subadults; I would bet that this species isn't reproductively active until age 2. The body shape is slightly rhomboidal, another Lythrurus trait. And I would guess that there are zillions of them in this stream, another Lythrurus trait although typical of golden shiners too. L. umbratilis it is in my 'umble opinion.

#12 Guest_dsmith73_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:38 PM

Not that my opinion means very much, but it does appear to be a Lythrurus sp. to me as well.

#13 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:24 PM

But Dustin, you're the man! I'm glad you agree.

#14 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:26 PM

Edit to add: Notemigonus crysoleucas have only been sampled once from the Mackinaw back in 1901. But anything is possible since they are a popular bait.


I highly doubted golden shiner as well. We should have got some adults then.

"natureman187"'s fish in the photo above is a Lythrurus species. Look at the mouth compared to the golden shiner, also the pattern and coverage of scales. The black dorsal spot isn't visible in this photo, but it's not always pronounced in subadults; I would bet that this species isn't reproductively active until age 2. The body shape is slightly rhomboidal, another Lythrurus trait. And I would guess that there are zillions of them in this stream, another Lythrurus trait although typical of golden shiners too. L. umbratilis it is in my 'umble opinion.


Agreed, and there were TONS of these little guys.



And I've got another one. Got this one today from a tributary off the Embarras River. These were scattered in with the shoals of sand shiners if thats worth anything.

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#15 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:41 PM

And I've got another one. Got this one today from a tributary off the Embarras River. These were scattered in with the shoals of sand shiners if thats worth anything.



Looks like a Cyprinella to me. Maybe spiloptera?

#16 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:51 PM

I agree with Mark. That sure looks like Cyprinella. The Embarras is home to both Cyprinella spiloptera and Cyprinella whipplei. How many anal rays do you see?

Nice photo!

#17 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 09:18 PM

I think the first one is a golden shiner but I'm not possitive on that, I would say that it is between that and a redfin, which is about worthless since you already pretty much have it down to those two. The second is definitely a Cyprinella sp. and I see 9 anal fin rays. I'm tired so I'm not going to check if that means spotfin or steelcolor but I'm sure someone else can tell you or you could look it up easy enough.

#18 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 11:58 PM

How about a photo from below to see if there are scales between the pelvic and anus. Lots of similarities between redfin and young golden shiners, must admit I've seen a lot more goldens then redfins. Or so I've thought.

#19 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 12:16 AM

That's all I took of him. I wish now I would have gotten some shots of a couple others that looked similar. It got cloudy and rained and was cold and windy and you get the point :roll:
These silver things are killing me. Uland how do you tell all these things apart? Is there a handbook or something I can get that distinguishes between all these?

Edited by natureman187, 28 May 2008 - 12:20 AM.


#20 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:20 AM

Illinois is home to quite a few silvery things from November to May :laugh:
Books really help a lot. I'm a firm believer in taking the Peterson Field guide (or the preferred book for your state) to the waters edge and bucket good examples of the adult fish you're curious about. You can then take the time to identify the fish once the excitement of sampling is over. When I started, I did not have a sampling partner so I would hold the large adults that I could distinguish as different and spend as much time as I needed at the waters edge to ID. I would usually go right back in the water and then try to distinguish the adult features in smaller fish. After a while it stuck. I've also been aided by returning to familiar waters at different times of the year (even if just a 10 minute sample). This helps me see the fish at all stages of development without tanking them. And last, time in the water cannot be discounted. Once you've handled a thousand Striped shiners along side Redfin shiners along side Emerald shiners....you can pick out the differences in all but the smallest fish.




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