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Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose (KY 5/08)


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#1 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 11:33 PM

Howdy folks,

A gang of us recently took a trip to the Green River watershed of the great state of Kentucky. NANFA members included Casper Cox (appearing as himself), Jeff Grabarkiewicz (fat pocketbook), Philip Kukulski (Uniseine), and Nathan Parker (Newt). Those getting aquainted (or freshly converted) were Phil Mathias and Justin Selden, both of the department at UT.

I have had some spectacular trips in the last couple years while in grad school, and I finally got bit. It was wet. Really wet. I don't even have photographs... It went something like this:

I took this picture of a mountain madtom (Noturus eleutherus):

mountain_madtom_01.jpg

And then took a second photo:

mountain_madtom_02.jpg

Which was blurred because it was fixed distance that was out of focus because I just shorted out the shutter with my wet finger. And it was too wet to dry it out for a couple days. I did manage to get this lovely shot off three days later...

hand.jpg

...which I immediately shorted out the shutter again on the first photograph at that site.

How wet was it? This was our photo session on the first day after burning some serious road to find this site:

IMG_1385_2.jpg
Left to Right: Grabarkiewicz, Crail, Mathias (taken by Selden)

Fortunately, the bar was set so low that first day that we could only do better. And indeed, we did :) Inspite of the crappy weather at this site, we did remarkably well. And we saw some liquid sunshine our final day. All this will pop up on this thread in time...

Sadly, we didn't run across the glittering prize for the trip... Thoburnia atripinnis, the blackfin sucker. This is a Barren River endemic, and I'm not sure if we were in the right habitats or not, with everything all flooded up. The rivers were totally different two days later, which worked to our advantage in some situations (we later realized), but not in others. However, I did add some new species to my "life list", and one that I am particularly stoked about is the redtail chub, Nocomis effusus when we snuck into part of the upper Red River.

I really enjoyed seeing the endemics, the orangefin darter, spledid darter and frecklebelly darter. Also saw a ton of longhead and channel darter, which both have become uncommon in spite of wide ranges.

And in a very cool find, by walking up a tiny trib, we ran across the headwater darter, E. lawrenci, which is a split out of the orangethroat darter complex. You know, I've had doubts about some splits in some cases... But THAT fish is so different from any spectabile I've seen. Wow. Pics to come!

So I'm going to do this in reverse, since I'm definately not the one with the photos this time, and do all the listing and so forth. I'm also going to skip listing by site... It'll take too much time, and some of these are sensitive species, esp the mussels.

And, we'll tell some stories as we gather pictures and film.

The Fishes

Lampreys
Ichthyomyzon castaneus, chestnut lamprey (adult)
Ichthyomyzon sp. (ammocoete forms)

Minnows
Campostoma oligolepis, largescale stoneroller
Cyprinella spiloptera, spotfin shiner
Erimystax dissimilis, streamline chub
Hybopsis amblops, bigeye shiner
Luxilus chrysocephalus, striped shiner
Lythrurus fasciolaris, scarlet shiner
Notropis leuciodus, Tennessee shiner
N. photogenis, silver shiner
N. rubellus, rosyface shiner
Pimephales notatus, bluntnose minnow
P. vigilax, bullhead minnow

Suckers
Hypentelium nigricans, northern hogsucker
Moxostoma duquensnei, black redhorse sucker
M. erythrurum, golden redhorse sucker

Sculpins
Cottus carolinae, banded sculpin

Killifishes
Fundulus catenatus, northern studfish
Fundulus notatus, blackstripe topminnow

Silversides
Labidesthes sicculus, brook silverside

Catfishes
Noturus eleutherus, mountain madtom

Sunfish
Ambloplites rupestris, rock bass
Lepomis cyanellus, green sunfish
Lepomis macrochirus, bluegill sunfish
Lepomis megalotis, central longear sunfish

Perches
Etheostoma barrenense, splendid darter (endemic to Barren River)
E. blennoides, greenside darter
E. bellum, orangefin darter (endemic to Green River)
E. caeruleum, rainbow darter
E. flavum, saffron darter
E. lawrencei, headwater darter (limited range in KY and TN)
E. maculatum, spotted darter
E. nigrum, johnny darter
E. rafinesquei, Kentucky snubnose darter (endemic to Green River)
E. squamiceps, spottail darter
E. stigmaeum sp. cf. , bluegrass darter (endemic to Green River)
E. tippecanoe, Tippecanoe darter
E. zonale, banded darter
Percina caprodes, logperch darter
P. copelandi, channel darter
P. evides, gilt darter
P. macrocephala, longhead darter
P. stictogaster, frecklebelly darter (limited range in KY and TN)

Sadly, we were very limited in where we could find mussels, since we were relegated to headwaters. I can't WAIT to go back and look there in the larger sections in the fall sometime!!! It has to be amazing!

We weren't very good about writing these down, so it's from memory... But I'm defaulting to the most conservative list (I mean how the heck do you NOT see grandis??). I need to get a permit for the next trip so we have vouchers. That should be fun to write ;)

The Mussels (L = live, FD = fresh dead, W = weathered)

Actinonaias ligamentina, mucket (L)
Alasmidonta marginata, elktoe (L)
Amblema plicata, threeridge (L)
Cyclonaias tuberculata, purple wartyback (L)
Cyprogenia stegaria, fanshell (FD) (Fed Endangered)
Elliptio dilatata, spike (L)
Epioblasma triquetra , snuffbox (W)
Fusconaia flava, Wabash pigtoe (L)
Fusconaia subrotunda, long-solid (FD)
Lampsilis fasciola, wavy-rayed lampmussel (L)
Leptodea fragilis, fragile papershell (L)
Ligumia recta, black sandshell (L)
Megalonaias nervosa, washboard (L)
Obliquaria reflexa, three-horn wartyback (FD)
Pleurobema clava, clubshell (FD) (Fed Endangered)
Pleurobema cordatum, Ohio pigtoe (FD)
Pleurobema plenum, rough pigtoe (FD)
Pleurobema sintoxia, round pigtoe (L)
Potamilus alatus, pink heelsplitter (L)
Ptychobranchus fasciolaris, kidneyshell (L)
Quadrula cylindrica, rabbitsfoot (L) (Fed Candidate)
Quadrula pustulosa, pimpleback (L)
Quadrula metanevra, monkeyface (FD)
Toxolasma lividus, purple liliput (Fed Candidate)
Tritogonia verrucosa, pistolgrip (L)
Truncilla truncata, deertoe (FD)
Villosa vanuxemensis, mountain creekshell (FD)

Okay, that's about enough for tonight :) Post away, guys!

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 28 May 2008 - 11:37 PM.


#2 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 07:28 AM

That one picture of you guys sitting by the creek in the rain looks like a Boy Scout weekend going bad. But I'm impressed that you found rough pigtoes, those are Federally Endangered too. There are few populations of those around today, we've found them in the Tennessee south of Huntsville.

#3 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 07:38 AM

Nice fish and mussel list, can't really complain too much, but the blackfin would have been sweet. The larger sections are pretty nice for mussels but I wouldn't put it up on too much of a pedalstool just yet, you might be disappointed. Some of the more accessible beds, i.e. that don't require a 10 mile canoe or jet boat trip, are dominated by ligamentina and have a percent or two of other things. Villosa vanuxemensis isn't possible in the Green River, it's a Cumberlandian species. If it had that somewhat purple copper nacre and similar shape it was probably V. lienosa. A little finer psuedocardinals and the nacre is highly variable but otherwise they are relatively similar except in distribution. No other Lampsilis? Man were you in for a head scratcher. Get any pictures of the P. sintoxia or plenum? I'd be interested in checking them out if you did. As you go down the river sintoxia starts to look like two or three different species within the same bed and reaches. That gravely area looks pretty familiar.....hmmm. Good luck with that permit, especially if you want to target the Green maintsem! :mrgreen:

P. plenum are present but pretty sporadic in the upper Green. One of those species where you can find one, maybe two with alot of searching. They are probably often confused with the rediculously variable P. sintoxia specimens from the Green.

#4 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:50 AM

Yeah when I was looking at "mountain creekshell" that didn't seem to jive. I need to get Jeff's KY book (or my own) and look it over again. I think it was an endemic to the Green with that purple nacre. Could it have been V. ortmanii? I'll check for pictures. There were some taken, but I wasn't the one who took them. There had to have been pocketbook, I can remember this morning talking about them. Like I said, the mussel list needed some tlc in a big huge way.

And I understand the mainstem is positively littered with mucket. But when I find fresh dead, recruiting-cohort-sized fanshell and the two rarer pigtoes in the same small midden... I tend to get excited ;)

Here's all the pictures I thought were nice that I took.

gilt.jpg
Gilt darter, Percina evides

spotted_01.jpg
Spotted darter, Etheostoma maculatum

streamline_chub.jpg
Streamline chub, Erimystax dissimilis

orangefin_male.jpg
Orangefin darter, Etheostoma bellum (you can HAVE the bluebreasts, Michael! ;) )

And then, for whatever reason, the flash turned on, and wouldn't turn off. I did manage to salvage this pic, however..

headwater_darter.jpg
Headwater darter, Etheostoma lawrencei

The flash (and rain) did consequently work out really well for us back at the campground. We saw a bunch of woodland critters we'd never have seen. Jeff started a collection of terrestrial snails (does it ever end? lol) and we saw some of the coolest millipedes that y'all in the south take for granted. Casper pointed out to us the "cherry coke" scent with the black and yellow guys... Man, you just can't get that smell out of your mind once you've caught the scent.

I should have tried to get more photos of the herp (frogs I just have no idea about), but I did get this nice picture of a cave salamander, Eurycea lucifuga.

tn_salamander.jpg

More "Herp Eye for the Fish Guy" I guess :)

I'll work on getting the liquid sunshine video online tonight. For what its worth Michael, we found a camera that can read the tapes. I haven't seen it do it's business yet, it's only hear say... But I may have some DVD's on the way to you. Also discovered that Imovie hates this camera as well lol. <sigh>

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 29 May 2008 - 08:51 AM.


#5 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:14 AM

Man I'm drolling over those Nothos and that gilt! What was the periostracum like? Was it really dark brown black like the vanuxemensis from the Duck or was it yellowish-green with really fine posterior green rays? The lienosa are much more common. Ortmanni are very sporadic (rare?) and pretty hard to come by but it's entirely possible if you were up in a nicer part of the headwaters (above the reservior?). V. lienosa teeth are much smaller and thinner than the ortmanni (very stout and thick for a Villosa of that size). Their nacre doesn't have the sheen and irridescensce like a vanuxemensis either; it reminds me alot more like a crassidens or the typical dilatata and tuberculata nacre. You know how thick/heavy a V. fabilis is for such a small mussel? That is how ortmanii feels, unlike lienosa and vanuxemensis. I have some pretty detailed notes on the differences of these three species actually, I had to present it for a malacology lecture so I may be able to find those later.

All I got to do that week instead of joining you guys was attend an awesome :roll: EPA training and not get to do any boat shocking on the Potomac because it was a coffee colored highway of trees. YAY!

#6 Guest_schambers_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:04 PM

That picture of you all sitting in the mud in the rain is just sad. Todd, I'm surprised you got any pictures at all out of your camera as wet as it was. That orangefin darter is amazing! =D> I'd go out in the rain to see that!

#7 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 02:59 PM

Man I'm drolling over those Nothos and that gilt! What was the periostracum like? Was it really dark brown black like the vanuxemensis from the Duck or was it yellowish-green with really fine posterior green rays?


That maculatum is the biggest, beefiest specimen I've 'er laid mine eyes upon. That was a real show stopper, even though we caught it in the pouring rain.

Yep, yellowish-green with fine posterior green rays. They were found in the upper ends

Would vauxemensis be found in the Red River? Perhaps that's where the record came from.

So the ortmanni are more like a fabilis is to iris on the teeth?

Your notes are always appreciated!!

Yeah Susan, it wasn't just sad... It was pathetic. Just took a picture closer to us and you could just see how much we weren't having fun. :)

A little teaser on the liquid sunshine.... The fat pocketbook is buried at work and I don't have any patience. This was just too cool.

spawning_cluster.jpg
Tenneessee shiner, striped shiner and scarlet shiner - Photo by J. Grabarkiewicz

We're working on the film.

Todd

#8 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 03:33 PM

Actually ortmanni specimens have been collected from the Red River but that is believed to be due to stream piracy. V. vanuxemensis could be collected from the Red since that is a Cumberland tributary but they seem to be foundin more of the upper Cumberland drainages. That lower Cumberland especially Red seems to be kind of tricky and muddled, but there's a dot in Parmalee and Bogan.

Yup you are right in your analogy. Thicker/heavier shelled especially near the umbo, stout/large teeth compared to somewhat uniformally thin shelled and small/thin teeth. Color and rays sound right. I'll try and find me Villosa comparison printout and transcribe by super nerd notes on differentiating charactersitings into a different post. I nabbed a print out in my notes from Tom Waters' "Virtual Villosa" on ortmanni

Ortmanni is not what most people think, at least not entirely. "Classic" ortmanni is a lienosa-like species with orange nacre occuring in the Green River (I've seen specimens from this local with orange nacre) at the malacological mecca of Munfordville, Kentucky. But beyond that, ortmanni quickly becomes something else. In the Nolin and Gasper rivers, as you move away from the Green River, pupulations being to show smaller, chunkier individuals, some having purple nacre as well as orange. And by the time you get to the periphery of the species in the red River and middle gasper, the entire population has purple nacre. these look very different from the "classic" ortmanni yet are part of a continuum of shell charactertics linking the two.

#9 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 04:09 PM

Too bad about the camera woes. Stories like that make me miss my old 1976 Yashica SLR. The only thing electric was the light meter and that stopped working when Reagan was in office. I used it for years without a battery in it. Too bad a cheap tripod dumped it onto pavement. :sad2:

I've heard camping and fishing in the rain breeds strong character. I doubt it though, hasn't helped me any all these years.

Can't wait to see more liguid sunshine, that was one heck of a shot you gave us for a teaser.

#10 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:31 PM

I only got to meet up with the guys on the last day of their trip; we hit the Trammel Fork of the Barren (all the pictures that follow are from that site) and the Green at Munfordville. It was good clean fun. I learned a lot about IDing and seining technique.

If I fudged any of these IDs, please feel free to correct me.

Female Greenside Darter (Etheostoma blennioides); there were a bunch of colored up males of this species, yet I got no good shots of them.
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Rainbow Darter (E. caeruleum)
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Snubnose Darter (E. simoterum)
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Bluegrass Darter (Etheostoma spp.)
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#11 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:35 PM

Splendid Darter (Etheostoma barrenense)
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Orangefin Darter (E. bellum)
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Longhead Darter (Percina macrocephala)
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Frecklebelly Darter (Percina spp.)
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#12 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:35 PM

Todd,

Thanks. All afternoon, that song has been in my head. "Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose... de da de dum da deedle de dada dum..." :D/

#13 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:36 PM

Mountain Madtom (Noturus lirus)
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Northern Hogsucker (Hypentelium nigricans)
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Golden Redhorse (Moxostoma anisurum)
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Northern Studfish (Fundulus catenatus)
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#14 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:40 PM

Streamline Chub (Erimystax dissimilis)
Posted Image

Scarlet Shiner (Lythrurus fasciolaris)
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Popeye Shiner (Notropis ariommus)
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Tennessee Shiner (N. leuciodus)
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Todd showing me the dark internasal crescents of the Silver Shiner (N. photogenis)
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Edited by Newt, 29 May 2008 - 05:43 PM.


#15 Guest_Casper Cox_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:52 PM

How can one not be impressed with a Striped Shiner in his glory. Such a plain, slabsided beast throughout most of his life and then the pearlescent King of the Shiners! A dozen of them leading a pulsing swarm of translucent orange overflown by a school of Scarlet Shiners. Yea, a sight to behold. Well worth any dreary rainy blues from 3 days before. I only wish that every trip gave a dream like this.

Dang, i thought when you hit reply below the post you respond to it goes under that post. i still cant figure this forum posting technique out.

Edited by Casper Cox, 29 May 2008 - 05:55 PM.


#16 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 06:28 PM

If there was one thing I wished I had on film... It was Casper coming down the stream, dazed like some aliens had just dropped him back off, ready to tell us the story of his swim.

"I have seen a natural phee-nom-in-na."

I'll try and rip the video of his interpretative hand signals for said phenomena ;)

Great pics Nathan. Man, I totally forgot about the popeye shiner, shame on me. There was also a creek chub in there somewhere... I remembered last night when we caught one, it was of note. We see far too many here in Oh-high-Oh. And an extremely minor point... The "snub" is the female splendid darter.

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 29 May 2008 - 06:32 PM.


#17 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 06:35 PM

Ah, thanks. There were a few minnows we got which I couldn't get good photos of, as well as a lone gambusia. My photos of the 'liquid sunshine' all came out as a reddish blur, so I'm glad Jeff's turned out so nicely.

Was one of these your millipede? I took these the prior Saturday at Mammoth Cave. The first is a spirobolid, probably Narceus americanus, the other some sort of xystodesmid.

Posted Image

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Edited by Newt, 29 May 2008 - 06:50 PM.


#18 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:46 PM

Aye. Those are the two we were so impressed with. I should have walked back up the danged hill just to get photos of those two species for my own purposes. How cool are they?

Don't think the liquid sunshine will come to the screen tonight. Had other tasks given to me ;)

Todd

#19 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:09 PM

I love millis, but I haven't been able to learn much about IDing them so far. There seem to be no conveniently gathered manuals, just papers here and there in various technical journals that deal with small portions of the full group, and a handful of experts who haven't committed all their ID knowledge to paper.

That cherry coke smell is largely hydrogen cyanide gas, so don't huff them too much.

#20 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:44 PM

orangefin_male.jpg
Orangefin darter, Etheostoma bellum (you can HAVE the bluebreasts, Michael! ;) )

I'll work on getting the liquid sunshine video online tonight. For what its worth Michael, we found a camera that can read the tapes. I haven't seen it do it's business yet, it's only hear say... But I may have some DVD's on the way to you. Also discovered that Imovie hates this camera as well lol. <sigh>


OK, you finally got me... I still love my bluebreasts (I mean where else can you even type that without someone thinking you are really weird)... but that is one fine looking fish. A couple of questions about the photo 1) how did you get the fish to flare all of their fins in your hand? Normally I get really clamped looking photos of darters in hand. Are these live fish, or fixed? 2) Are these ty[pical nothototus, meaning they were lighter in color underwater and got darker as a stress response? Or was the substrate in this area really dark?

And as far as video is concerned, bring on the Hydrophlox!

MW
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin



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