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Unique Experimental Sunfish Assemblage


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#1 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 10:23 AM

I founded an experimental fishery in a ¾ acre quarry in early summer 2008 for our aquatic biology class to study over the next several years. Founders included the following: redear 3♀ and 3♂, pumpkinseed 3♀ and 3♂, and warmouth 3♀ and 1♂ (stocked on last day). Also stocking snails native to drainage to ensure adequate mollusk prey.


Reproduction by the redear and pumpkinseed was immediate. Forty-five days following founding fry of both species were evident throughout the water column from almost the surface down to almost 15 feet. Multiple cohorts are evident. Fry of pumpkinseeds and redear look different. Redear were still spawning in middle July which in my experience is late for that species. Redear males nest together on one side of quarry and pumpkinseed males spawn on the other side of the quarry with distances of approximately 30 feet between nests. Females of redear and pumpkinseed, when not associating with males, move about as single species shoals. They are eating very well and breeding about every two. Food is so abundant males are well fed even when tending nest. Warmouth were not apparent.

Looking for several things. What will the distribution of the three species be in the quarry as a function of depth, structure, etc..? Will pumpkinseed or redear shift away from consuming mollusks? Will the warmouth be able to move into the largemouth bass role as the top predator and limit recruitment of the other two species. Nesting habitat will become limiting as F1’s enter breeding population. How will nesting habitat be divided? Will hybrids become evident?

#2 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 07:10 AM

Assuming you have aquired all permits and Liscenses for this project this is my Observation. Strictly non proffesional but educated guesses.

The Red Ears and Pumpkins to me would thrive in a "quarry". Warmouths on the other hand need cover and If I am not mistaken a mud bottomed habitat. Seems a quarry would not have this.

As far as the other stuff asked maybe one of the proffesionals on this site can key in on this thread. I do not know why no one has answered you question that is why I gave my general observation of my general reading and field experience with above stated fish.

Regards,
Daniel

#3 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 06:42 PM

This work is being done for educational purposes but also will serve as source of brood stock for future research . Missouri Department of conservation kindly applied rotenone to eradicate the previous assemblage which was made up in part of exotics such as koi, grass carp, and a few goldfish plus bluegill, green sunfish, their hybrid and largemouth bass. All three species are legal for aquaculture in Missouri and the property has been approved for this use by university officials.


Yes, I agree redear and pumpkinseed, can and do occur in quarries. Seen several quarries with latter in northern Indiana and it is hard to find quarries farther south that do not support redear. Warmouth in my expereince have no actual requirements for a soft bottom. If anything they do prefer slow flow rates and lots of vegetation in shallow water, especially when green sunfish are abundant. This quarry has only a little soft bottom in the small area less than 4 feet deep that also has some submergent vegetation. The male warmouth seen on the nest in late July before and after he became a daddy so enough muck in the shallows exist for breeding at least. Will those resultant offspring be able to recruit into the successfully over-wintering population?

I guess what I have done previously did not qualify as a question as much as a statement.


Assuming you have aquired all permits and Liscenses for this project this is my Observation. Strictly non proffesional but educated guesses.

The Red Ears and Pumpkins to me would thrive in a "quarry". Warmouths on the other hand need cover and If I am not mistaken a mud bottomed habitat. Seems a quarry would not have this.

As far as the other stuff asked maybe one of the proffesionals on this site can key in on this thread. I do not know why no one has answered you question that is why I gave my general observation of my general reading and field experience with above stated fish.

Regards,
Daniel



#4 Guest_benmor78_*

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 01:58 AM

This work is being done for educational purposes but also will serve as source of brood stock for future research . Missouri Department of conservation kindly applied rotenone to eradicate the previous assemblage which was made up in part of exotics such as koi, grass carp, and a few goldfish plus bluegill, green sunfish, their hybrid and largemouth bass. All three species are legal for aquaculture in Missouri and the property has been approved for this use by university officials.
Yes, I agree redear and pumpkinseed, can and do occur in quarries. Seen several quarries with latter in northern Indiana and it is hard to find quarries farther south that do not support redear. Warmouth in my expereince have no actual requirements for a soft bottom. If anything they do prefer slow flow rates and lots of vegetation in shallow water, especially when green sunfish are abundant. This quarry has only a little soft bottom in the small area less than 4 feet deep that also has some submergent vegetation. The male warmouth seen on the nest in late July before and after he became a daddy so enough muck in the shallows exist for breeding at least. Will those resultant offspring be able to recruit into the successfully over-wintering population?

I guess what I have done previously did not qualify as a question as much as a statement.


You've got a cool job, man.

#5 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 09:35 PM

Very interesting... I actually am trying something similar but it is a much smaller body of water. I am working on stocking a pond with warmouth, redear, and central longears. This pond is about 1.5 acres and about 15 feet deep. I have put in 100 yoy warmouth and redear and hope to get the local strain of central longear in there soon, it will likely be next spring. I would have liked to have gotten all three in there at the same time but I was unable to get a spawn of Local central longears this year and I don't want to introduce a non-native form to the area even if it is highly unlikely they would get out. The redears are bad enough but are already quite common in the area despite not being native and seem to have a hard time permanently establishing themselvs this far north when bluegill are present. I am very curious to see what will become the most abundant species in both your case and mine over time. In my case though this is not my pond but a pond I am stocking for someone and bass will be added next year so there will be a higher predator. I am being somewhat vauge on purpose because this is not my pond but simply one I am being paid to stock and will be monitoring over the next couple of years.

I really really like the idea of man made ponds without bluegill or green sunfish. I get very tired of every little pond having those two species and no other lepomis sunfish so I was quite happy I convinced this customer to go without them and that he was willing to let me monitor what happens over time.

#6 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 03:24 PM

UPDATE 21 May 2009

Pumpkinseed and warmouth sunfishes spawning, former started at least 5 days ago based on developmental stage of prolarvae. Red fin shiners spawning in nest of pumpkinseeds. Redear ripe and one very large female warmouth stacked up as group at edge of area serving as spawning area last year. Pumkinseed may be excluding redear from colony (something we thought might happen) despite redear being at least four times the weight of the pumkinseed. No founding pumpkinseed apparent although all 6 founding redear accounted for. One male and one female warmouth used as founders last year can be accounted for, latter largest fish in pond at what appears to be 9" and very fat. Warmouth male ( large also) spawning in nearly same location as last year.

#7 Guest_panfisherteen_*

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 04:29 PM

that must be cool having a quarry as your playground for experimenting with natives :cool:

#8 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 04:46 PM

that must be cool having a quarry as your playground for experimenting with natives :cool:


The redfin shiner is actually the western redfin shiner Lythrurus umbratilis umbratilis which is noticeably different from the eastern form I am most experienced with. I wonder if the spawn will be able to recruit successfully into the adult population by fall. No bass present but juvenile Lepomis spp. abundant in water column of open water where fry are likely to move after leaving nest.

Also hoping warmouth with be able to suppress recruitment of other sunfishes (redear and pumpkinseed). They do appear to be heavily reliant upon the others as prey but numbers and size of warmouth must build up before I think they have a chance as an effective control agent.

Edited by centrarchid, 21 May 2009 - 04:47 PM.


#9 Guest_panfisherteen_*

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 05:11 PM

well hopefully the juv warmouths get fat quickly of the smaller sunfish, i guess you could get away with adding a couple more warmouths if needed

#10 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 07:14 PM

1 J uly 2009

Redear stopped spawning in early June. Pumpkinseeds still going at it. Male pumpkinseed of breeding size, on and off nest, are in poor condition. Pumpkinseed nest are dispersed as in 2008. I was unable to locate any of the fish originally stocked. Based on repeated observations all pumpkinseeds breeding in 2008 are no longer present. Apparently all six redear stocked in 2008 are alive and growing. The redfin shiners still breeding over pumpkinseed nests but I could see no fry or fingerlings.

Young fish all apparently from 2008 cohorts. No fish I could see in upper six feet appear to be young-of-year. Larger 1+ of all fish not breeding move about singly or small shoals. Smaller, numerically more abundant 1+ fish are in larger groups / schools hanging out around structures protruding into open water. Two schools of a couple hundred warmouth approximamtely 1-1.25" each were acting like similar sized crappie feeding largely on zooplankton.


Some of the larger warmouth and redear (1+) are pushing 6" and they look good. The former seem to be cropping off the smaller individuals that approach to closely to their hideouts. The warmouth would defend hideouts as I looked on.


Numerically the pumpkinseed are most abundant but none are as large as adults in late 2008 and do not appear to be on a growth trajectory to catch up.

Neither Physa or Heliosoma spp. snails were observed. They were abundant late last fall and early this spring. Populations of same in aquaculture ponds are abundant and building.

#11 Guest_PhilipKukulski_*

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:09 PM

<clip>
I have put in 100 yoy warmouth and redear and hope to get the local strain of central longear in there soon, it will likely be next spring.
<clip>


I worked Oak Run, west of London, Ohio, on May 17, 2009; no Longears. I talked to Doug Sweet on June 17, 2009, and he said that the Longears have finally moved upstream to spawn.

So, collecting Longears Sunfish in Spring might not be easy.

#12 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 10:21 AM

I worked Oak Run, west of London, Ohio, on May 17, 2009; no Longears. I talked to Doug Sweet on June 17, 2009, and he said that the Longears have finally moved upstream to spawn.

So, collecting Longears Sunfish in Spring might not be easy.


The pond I mentioned did get the longears in late last fall, I checked on it last month. Found redear and longear spawning but was unable to find any warmouth. Bluntnose minnows and Johnny darters were both very abundant, both adults and YOY. I did not find any adult log perch but aparently they are still around because I did find a fair number of juveniles. Yellow perch escaped the aquaculture pond up hill from this one and aparently were in soon enough to spawn, fingerlings were very abundant. This pond is in the final stages of stocking and predators were added in the form of Largemouth and channel cats. It will be interesting to see over time if all three Lepomis species do indeed persist with the perch, largemouth, and channel cats around. I'm also interested to see if the bluntnose, logperch, and johnny darters persist over time.

#13 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 10:27 AM

Centrarchid I find your observations very fascinating. Unfortunately this pond I mentioned is not very close to me so making direct observation very often is not practical. The owner says that the water gets rather clear and he can see fish quite easily. The last two times I have been there I tried to snorkel but in both cases there was a unusually large rain event just before I made the trip causing the water to become rather murky with only 1-2 ft of visibility. Maybe later this summer yet I'll be able to see a little more of what is going on.

#14 Guest_panfisherteen_*

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 10:08 PM

The last two times I have been there I tried to snorkel but in both cases there was a unusually large rain event just before I made the trip causing the water to become rather murky with only 1-2 ft of visibility

The weathermen are out to get ya :twisted:
"Look, he's heading back to the pond on Sunday, so Saturday we'll move that cold front ahead and intensify the thunderstorms inbedded in the rain to dirty the water. Abusing our powers, man is it fun..." :fishy:

#15 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:38 PM

Assemblage still going with changes. Shellcrackers appear stunted. Observations of breeding colonies provide evidence adults pumpkinseed are as large or larger than redear. Largest of latter no longer than 5". No obvious evidence for hybridization despite nest of both species interspersed. The two shellcrackers are still easy to distinguish based on vertical fin color from a distance at any angle. Warmouth are very plump and several larger than I have ever caught. Warmouth do infact appear to be consuming large numbers of smaller sunfish and they do it out in open. They do not rove like bass. Two other species, namely red finned shiners and brook silversides, have emerged as major components of assemblage. Both abundant in pelagic zone with former dominating at depths greater than 2 feet and silverside at surface. Highest density of both I have ever witnessed. Groups of male redfin shiner exceede 40 around a single sunfish nest with courtship and battles a feast for the eyes. Silverside males holding territories around entire perimeter of quarry. High condition factor of sunfishes partly a function of allochthanous inputs repressented by periodic cicadas. Bullfrogs are huge and numerous.

#16 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:29 AM

Any idea where the shiners and silversides came from?

#17 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:50 PM

Any idea where the shiners and silversides came from?


Stream down hill of quarry that quarry ultimately feeds into. Both species abundant in same small stream where it dumps into Missouri river no more than mile from quarry. Redfins of subspecies with nearly black body body those in quarry seem not so black.

#18 Guest_pylodictis_*

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:33 PM

Assuming you have aquired all permits and Liscenses for this project this is my Observation. Strictly non proffesional but educated guesses.

The Red Ears and Pumpkins to me would thrive in a "quarry". Warmouths on the other hand need cover and If I am not mistaken a mud bottomed habitat. Seems a quarry would not have this.

As far as the other stuff asked maybe one of the proffesionals on this site can key in on this thread. I do not know why no one has answered you question that is why I gave my general observation of my general reading and field experience with above stated fish.

Regards,
Daniel



This has not been my experience, for one. I know of, for example, a high gradient rocky creek with a large abundance of Lepomis gulosus(they make great bait too).




#19 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:35 PM

This has not been my experience, for one. I know of, for example, a high gradient rocky creek with a large abundance of Lepomis gulosus(they make great bait too).


We have warmouth occuring at low densities in rocky streams as well. Streams are within few miles of low gradient reaches. I have not seen warmouth on nest and unless missing something, population stucture where warmouth collected in such locations is poorly repressented by warmouth less than 3". My hypothesis is warmouth in our rocky streams moving from lowland areas into higher gradient reaches or pools not sampled are more suitable for warmouth. My money is that if rockbass were abundant, warmouth would not be as abundant in rocky reaches of these streams. Possible problem for warmouth is small juveniles and possibly larvae not suited for rocky streams but adults are.

#20 Guest_wargreen_*

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 09:32 PM

Assemblage still going with changes. Shellcrackers appear stunted. Observations of breeding colonies provide evidence adults pumpkinseed are as large or larger than redear. Largest of latter no longer than 5". No obvious evidence for hybridization despite nest of both species interspersed. The two shellcrackers are still easy to distinguish based on vertical fin color from a distance at any angle. Warmouth are very plump and several larger than I have ever caught. Warmouth do infact appear to be consuming large numbers of smaller sunfish and they do it out in open. They do not rove like bass. Two other species, namely red finned shiners and brook silversides, have emerged as major components of assemblage. Both abundant in pelagic zone with former dominating at depths greater than 2 feet and silverside at surface. Highest density of both I have ever witnessed. Groups of male redfin shiner exceede 40 around a single sunfish nest with courtship and battles a feast for the eyes. Silverside males holding territories around entire perimeter of quarry. High condition factor of sunfishes partly a function of allochthanous inputs repressented by periodic cicadas. Bullfrogs are huge and numerous.



Could water temp. and food availability be the reason that Pumpkinseeds are doing so well and Redears are not?




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