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Killifish from St Johns River FL


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#1 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 11:21 AM

About 6 months ago I decided to create a native 55 gallon aquarium. I collected fish from the St. John River in Florida. I mainly used a net to capture small fish that were hiding amid the water plants. I took these fish and put them in my pond. From my pond I collected several different species and put them in my aquarium. With the help of fishbase I was able to identify many of the fish that I decided to keep in my community tank. I removed all the gambusia because they are little nippers. I kept a few of the variagated gambusia in a seperate tank because they are interesting and very easy to keep.
In my main tank I believe I have successfully identified these wild fish.:
I have wild sailfin mollies. I can keep one male Sailfin in the tank along with a 5 female mollys. I have another male that I keep in a tank by himself (way too beautiful and colorful to release) because if I put him in the large tank he doesn't eat well. He is too preoccupied with the female mollys.
I have about 8 bluefin killies, 3 are males, one river platy ( much bigger than the Mickey Mouse type fish you see in pet stores, and not as colorful) 2 creek chubsuckers (great for helping clean up the bottom of my tank), a few least killies (which are very prolific in my tank) and three other types of killifish that I can not identify. I did have 2 green small green sunfish but they got put back into my pond as they don't seem to be community fish.
All my fish get along well and are very healthy except for a few. One was a very pregnant molly who died loaded with live young. I am wondering what went wrong. She lost her balance, became vertical in the tank, (was not dropsy). She had given birth on another occasion with out incident (other than most of her fry were eaten).
In fact I have a seperate tank where I keep fry that I collect from my maintank including one of her babies.

Which brings me to my current dilemma. Of the three types of killifish that I can't identify, 2 of one of the types died when they were very full of eggs. None of my males have died nor have any of the females that aren't super pregnant. I released two very pregnant females because I did not want them to suffer the same fate. I have a gravel bottom in my aquariurm as well as different plants. I am wondering if they die because they don't feel they have a suitable place to lay their eggs? Again my least killies and my bluefin don't have this problem.

One kind of killifish that I have has a bright gold belly, tail and fins. His body is a light tan with some gold spots and mottling. This type can almost strobe. When he displays his colors really intensify. At times this type reminds me of a chameleon.
The second type starts with a gray mottled body with light blue specks towards that back of his body. His tail and fins are dark blue/black. The fins and tail are fringed with light blue. He too intensifies colors and can change from almost white to black on his main body depending on his mood or environment.

The third type is bigger, tan/gold body with stripes, and a black spot on the dorsal fin. It could be that this is the female coloration of one of the other killies. She mates with the males with gold bellies. It is this type of fish that died full of eggs.

I know that pictures would help but it is difficult to take pictures in my tank because of all the plants. I will need to get someone to help me. These killies are very difficult to try and catch. They know what the net is. I really don't like stressing the fish and uprooting my live plants which occures when I try to net one of them. The only fish faster in my tank are my chubs.

I noticed that the males and females are doing much fish frollicking again at the bottom of my tank. I think I now have more pregnant killies.

Here is some extra information that may help with the ID. All the fish in my tank get along. The worst thing that happens is that sometines the male killies will display and chase each other when a female is by them. Mostly though they just hang out. I keep my water room temp as I live in St. Augustine, FL. My water quality is great, no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. It is the same PH as the river where they were born. It is hard water just like the water in the river.

Could anyone please help me to identify these killies so that I can learn more about them? Does anyone understand why my two females died?

Thanks everyone for tolerating a rank amateur,
Best regards,
Michelle

#2 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 12:05 PM

Michelle, I would guess that the first of your unknown killies is a golden topminnow, Fundulus chrysotus, and the second, larger one is likely a seminole killifish, F. seminolis. The seminoles can get surprisingly large. Very gravid females will release eggs almost anywhere once they get to that point, so I don't think you had to worry about hurting them. As a pretty strong rule you shouldn't release fish once you've had them in your aquarium because you may intentionally spread disease or parasites back and forth; once you take a fish home it's "biologically dead" to the natural world.

These fishes should be OK in a reasonably large aquarium, as long as they don't jump; all killies have a strong tendency to boogie, some more than others. Good luck.

#3 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 12:26 PM

No they do not look anything like a golden top minnow. Actually the gold is more of a bright orange. They have big wide mouths. Their heads are wide when viewed from above, but eyes are not as big as a golden top minnow. They eat flake food, krill, and blood worms. They size ranges from 3 to maybe 4 inches. The females get a bit bigger.

Please do not worry that I released my fish into the wild. I have a manmade pond that I stocked with riverfish. I released them back into my pond.

Also none of my fish look like the Seminole killifish. My fish are very colorful whether it is the blue variety or the orange type.

The closest thing that I could find to what one of the looked like was something called a Nosy Bee type killifish?

The orange type looks more like a redface top minnow but I can only find one picture to compare so I am not for sure.


Michelle, I would guess that the first of your unknown killies is a golden topminnow, Fundulus chrysotus, and the second, larger one is likely a seminole killifish, F. seminolis. The seminoles can get surprisingly large. Very gravid females will release eggs almost anywhere once they get to that point, so I don't think you had to worry about hurting them. As a pretty strong rule you shouldn't release fish once you've had them in your aquarium because you may intentionally spread disease or parasites back and forth; once you take a fish home it's "biologically dead" to the natural world.

These fishes should be OK in a reasonably large aquarium, as long as they don't jump; all killies have a strong tendency to boogie, some more than others. Good luck.



#4 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 03:40 PM

Maybe you should take a picture of these golden topminnows and other killies so we could understand what you talking about.

Next time don't take any unknown fishes out of their natual home as you might accidently bought a threatened species which its not good for you if the officers caught you. Are your manmade pond a natural or plastic? If natural pond, which its unwise to release aquarium fishes into the pond as diseases can escape into waterways.

#5 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:24 AM

Michelle, where on the St Johns did you get these fish? You mention you live in St Augustine, and the nearest point of the St Johns to there is at Palatka ... which has shrimp runs, blue crabs and fair numbers of brackish water fish. (e.g., Lucania parva, the rainwater killie, are present in large numbers right by the Palatka bridge, and range at least another 40 miles upriver to the Juniper and Alexander Springs runs; Cyprinodon variegatus, the sheapshead PUPFISH (nee minnow), ranges upriver (south) level with Titusville.) So if we don't have px we might need to consider brackish-water fish possibilities too.

I like Bruce's suggestion of chrysotus a LOT for the the golden-red-mottled-flashy-veggie-lurking-sex-fiends.

But I'm wondering if some of the others might not be F. grandis, the Gulf Killie. It's grayish mottled with spots, colors up really nicely (far better than any book px I've seen), has a broad mouth, black fin fringes and can turn from pale to near-black like a flashlight, especially males in season. And the StJ is listed as the NE limit of its range. How big are these fish ?

I'm also curious about some of the other fish you mention: river platy???? creek chubsucker (doesn't get this far south per Peterson's) ..... were there perhaps other fish in your pond before you put in your catches from the St Johns ?

d.d.

#6 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:27 AM

Thank you Butch for your advice. I will submit some pictures. I hope either today or tomorrow.

My pond is natural. It is large and centered in the middle of 4 acres of mowed grass. I do not think that any fish would be able to escape from it due to the way we built it, even with the torrential rain that we sometimes get in Florida. I assure you that my original intent in collecting some fish from Trout Creek (which is right off the St John river) was to obtain mosquito fish so that my pond would not become a breeding place for mosquitos.
I had my pond for about 6 months. I had water lillies and other plants bought from Pets Mart well established. Unfortunately when I would go outside to enjoy my work the mosquitoes would attack in mass. I called the county and one of the alternatives that they suggested was stocking my pond with mosquito fish. I went to the creek with a net and in a shallow area I filled up a bucket of water and proceeded to collect mosquito fish - gambusia - which I do recognize. All the fish collected were small and appeared to be mosquito fish. I collected some small water lettuce plants in the netting process. When I got back to my pond I dumped the bucket of water, fish and lettuce into my pond.

Within a month there was no more mosquito problem. However a few months later I started noticing fish that were way to big to be mosquito fish. They were absolutely beautiful. I did not recognize them nor did my neighbor who is an advid fisherman. This is when I decided to create my indoor aquarium. I netted fish from my pond. I kept the fish that I did not recognize while returning the mosquito fish to my pond immediately.

It took me a long time to learn the difference between species, much of my knowledge came from fishbase. Some of my new fish were easy to identify such as the male bluefin killies, the least killies, the creek chubs and the different types of mollies. It took a little bit longer for me to identify the river platy and the green sunfish. I mentioned I returned the 2 green sunfish to my pond ( about 100,000 gallons) because they would not have worked out well with the rest of the fish.

The closest body of water to me is Trout creek which borders my property but is 1/2 a mile away from my pond. So in the advent that somehow my pond could develop an underground stream it is conceivable that maybe the fish might escape, which I know is bad, but they would truly be returning to whence they came. I doubt that this will be a problem. The burm around my pond is high. We do have the ability to drain if need be into a controlled area. We have never come close to having that issue.

Again I will try to get some decent pictures. It won't do much good if they are not clear enough to see the colors, and patterns. If geography helps my zip is 32092. Also the three types of fish I can't identify all share the same body shapes but different colors and patterns.

Butch again do not worry that I would do anything to harm our environment. I may seem uneducated in regards to the fish family tree but I am not an uneducated or irresponsible person. I am an IT System Analyst so I focused my attention on Logistics and Supply Chain management rather than zoology. I wish I could have done both but as it stands I am now trying to educate myself concerning my new responsibilities. Please have patience, I have learned most of the latin group names but am not using them as I am not comfortable with my spelling. I understand the differences between Perciformes and Fundulidae and a few others. I do know that there is no way that the fish I have are the Nosy Be type since that island is far from this continent. I was only saying that I see a similarity in patterns and colors.

Once again thank you for responding. I will do my best to get some decent pictures. I won't I return my two gravid unknown Killies to my pond since I take it you think the previous two deaths were not due to their gravidity. I just hate to see another fish die if I can help it.

quote name='butch' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:40 PM' post='42598']
Maybe you should take a picture of these golden topminnows and other killies so we could understand what you talking about.

Next time don't take any unknown fishes out of their natual home as you might accidently bought a threatened species which its not good for you if the officers caught you. Are your manmade pond a natural or plastic? If natural pond, which its unwise to release aquarium fishes into the pond as diseases can escape into waterways.
[/quote]

#7 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:47 AM

Doug,
Thank you for your interest. I am north of Palatka. I collected the fish from Trout Creek which joins the St John River about 1/2 mile from my home. My zip is 32092. The creek is about 20 to 30 feet deep. We do get tides. There is not much current usually, in fact the wind can change the direction from time to time. Right now on my shore by the boatdock I can see many sunfish guarding their nests. I know that these are males. I don't know what kind they are. They are larger than the 2 green sunfish that I found in my pond. These fish have a more orange coloration and bigger black spots.

Most of the males in my pond and in my aquarium are 3 to 4 inches. In my pond I see some that are not as colorful and that are as large as 5 maybe even 6 inches.

Anyway if you read my post to Bruce you will see that all the fish in my pond came from one bucket of water, plants, and fish collected from Trout Creek. The Gulf Killie you describe sound like my fish. It can intensify color quickly. When it dislplays it is incredibly beautiful. The only difference is that the very end of the black fin is fringed with light blue. These killies? are very prolific in my pond.

Michelle, where on the St Johns did you get these fish? You mention you live in St Augustine, and the nearest point of the St Johns to there is at Palatka ... which has shrimp runs, blue crabs and fair numbers of brackish water fish. (e.g., Lucania parva, the rainwater killie, are present in large numbers right by the Palatka bridge, and range at least another 40 miles upriver to the Juniper and Alexander Springs runs; Cyprinodon variegatus, the sheapshead PUPFISH (nee minnow), ranges upriver (south) level with Titusville.) So if we don't have px we might need to consider brackish-water fish possibilities too.

I like Bruce's suggestion of chrysotus a LOT for the the golden-red-mottled-flashy-veggie-lurking-sex-fiends.

But I'm wondering if some of the others might not be F. grandis, the Gulf Killie. It's grayish mottled with spots, colors up really nicely (far better than any book px I've seen), has a broad mouth, black fin fringes and can turn from pale to near-black like a flashlight, especially males in season. And the StJ is listed as the NE limit of its range. How big are these fish ?

I'm also curious about some of the other fish you mention: river platy???? creek chubsucker (doesn't get this far south per Peterson's) ..... were there perhaps other fish in your pond before you put in your catches from the St Johns ?

d.d.



#8 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:36 PM

Okay I see Trout Creek in the DeLorme, well north of Palatka nearer to Green Cove Springs. Definitely should be a fresh on top, brackish below, semi-tidal, mixed environment there.

The only Florida freshwater killie I can think of that gets over 4" is F. seminolis, which is in the drainage but green-silver and "colorful" isn't one of the first 100 words that'd come to mind for it.

So what you have for Fishes #2/#3 are probably either brackish water killies, or not-killies.

As we've said, px should definitely help, when you can get some.

(Which as we all know can be a pain. I have some mystery fish I picked up a few weeks ago on a passage through Alabama that I'm not sure of but I don't have decent px on any of them yet either.)

d.d.

#9 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:39 PM

Doug,
Here is a picture of my chubs and the river platy. I have to go through the rest of my photos to see if I can find any good Killifish pxs. More to come soon. Am I right on my ID for these fish?

Doug,
Thank you for your interest. I am north of Palatka. I collected the fish from Trout Creek which joins the St John River about 1/2 mile from my home. My zip is 32092. The creek is about 20 to 30 feet deep. We do get tides. There is not much current usually, in fact the wind can change the direction from time to time. Right now on my shore by the boatdock I can see many sunfish guarding their nests. I know that these are males. I don't know what kind they are. They are larger than the 2 green sunfish that I found in my pond. These fish have a more orange coloration and bigger black spots.

Most of the males in my pond and in my aquarium are 3 to 4 inches. In my pond I see some that are not as colorful and that are as large as 5 maybe even 6 inches.

Anyway if you read my post to Bruce you will see that all the fish in my pond came from one bucket of water, plants, and fish collected from Trout Creek. The Gulf Killie you describe sound like my fish. It can intensify color quickly. When it dislplays it is incredibly beautiful. The only difference is that the very end of the black fin is fringed with light blue. These killies? are very prolific in my pond.

Attached Images

  • River_Platy_and_Chubs.JPG


#10 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:46 PM

Your river platy are not platy but just regular female swordtail.

#11 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:04 PM

Here are some photos of my other fish. Please excuse the quality as I had to reduce them in order to comply with size limits. I also tried to capture unique markings such as the dark spot on the top fin or the light blue fringe on tail. I think that some striping can be seen too. The kind with the light fring on the tail can change from very light gray to vary dark gray depending on their mood. They were very pale in the pictures as I think that they were afraid on the lighting that I used to snap the shots. Plus I moved a bunch of their plants to a corner of the aquarium. Hope this helps. The fish are usually no bigger than 4 inches except for the kind with the black spot which get a bit larger in the pond environment. I got a ruler to check them and realized that my sizing was off by two inches. So typically they are 3 to 4 inches.
Michelle

Your river platy are not platy but just regular female swordtail.

Attached Images

  • Bluefin_and_Chub.JPG
  • Female_orange_with_stripes_and_black_spot.JPG
  • Female_striped.JPG
  • Gray_killi_with_fringe_on_tail.JPG
  • Killi.JPG
  • Orange_Killi_Reduced.JPG
  • Orange_Killi_2.JPG
  • Sailfin.JPG


#12 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:13 PM

Here are some photos of my other fish. Please excuse the quality as I had to reduce them in order to comply with size limits. I also tried to capture unique markings such as the dark spot on the top fin or the light blue fringe on tail. I think that some striping can be seen too. The kind with the light fring on the tail can change from very light gray to vary dark gray depending on their mood. They were very pale in the pictures as I think that they were afraid on the lighting that I used to snap the shots. Plus I moved a bunch of their plants to a corner of the aquarium. Hope this helps. The fish are usually no bigger than 4 inches except for the kind with the black spot which get a bit larger in the pond environment. I got a ruler to check them and realized that my sizing was off by two inches. So typically they are 3 to 4 inches.

One more question I didn't think that swordtails are native to Florida. Have they been introduced into this area?
Michelle



#13 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:21 PM

Looks like you have only two different species of fundulus.

The one (with black spot on dorsal fin) has more bands are probably a banded killifish or was a banded topminnow?

The rest of killifish are either gulf killifish, mummichogs or bayou killifish. However im not best expert when its come to the ID as im still learning how to.

Your river platy is just a old plain female swordtail, and another example of pet release.

Edited by butch, 03 August 2008 - 04:26 PM.


#14 Guest_dsmith73_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:29 PM

THe ones with the spangling(males) and the ones with the the vertical barring and spot in the dorsal(females) are marsh killifish, Fundulus confluentus. I have taken them in the St. Johns before. The males are very nice looking fish. Butch most of the species you mentioned are not found in the St. Johns.

#15 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 04:57 PM

THe ones with the spangling(males) and the ones with the the vertical barring and spot in the dorsal(females) are marsh killifish, Fundulus confluentus. I have taken them in the St. Johns before. The males are very nice looking fish. Butch most of the species you mentioned are not found in the St. Johns.

Dustin beat me to it, those are marsh killifish. I hadn't thought of them before because I was thinking only of primarily freshwater species. F. confluentus it is.

#16 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 05:11 PM

Then I need an updated field guide book to the North American freshwater fishes and brackish water too. I only have Peterson Field Guide Freshwater Fishes but I think it need to be update. But I think that you are right that this is just marsh killifish as I learned from the interent.

#17 Guest_mzokan_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 05:26 PM

The fish in the upper left of the first pic is a a bluefin killifish (Lucania goodei), I third the marsh killi ID. Nice catches!

Marcus

#18 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 06:12 PM

Thank you everyone for the IDs. Now I will be able to see to their needs better. I am still concerned over the two very gravid female marsh killies who died suddenly and with no apparent reason other than their gravidity. All the rest of my fish are healthy, my tanks healthy so I'm kind of puzzled. Should I put some type of material in my tank where they will want to lay their eggs? Or maybe it is just some wierd coincidence. Can fish get egg bound and die?

#19 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 11:26 PM

The second last px has a couple of juvenile lake chubsuckers, the black leading edge on the dorsals is a tell-tale.

I'm not sure if your bigger killies are gulfs or mummichogs, the St Johns is right at the crossover. I'm now leaning towards mummichog because they don't quite look right for the gulf killies I see and know.

Pretty darn good haul for a few swipes through the vegetation !!!

The platy/swordtail/whatever-it-is-it-ain't-native fish .... you should file a online report on that with the USGS's NonIndigenous Aquatic Species section. ... http://nas.er.usgs.g...htingReport.asp . They list Xiphophorus maculatus as being "locally established" in the St Johns drainage, the online info doesn't specify where in the St Johns (see http://nas.er.usgs.g...p?speciesID=872 and check out the map too) ... and occurrences of various Xiphophorus crosses that may or may not be established. You could help confirm the distribution and/or persistence of this non-native. Esp. if you have pictures and specimens.

(I reported brown hoplo cats (Hoplosternum littorale) from a new location a few years ago ... after a Fla NANFA (SKS) field trip actually ... and they seemed a bit surprised I actually had them in a tank at the house. They said they'd like to see them, and since by freaky chance their national center/lab is in Gainesville FL where I work, that was pretty easy. And when they had live ones 12 inches from their eyes they were confident in the ID! And updated the range maps. They'll use info from amateurs if it's credible. I had a nice visit with Dr. Nico and learned a lot about brown hoplos And got a reward, in the form of a little warm glow that little ole me was helping fishological science in a tiny way.)

d.d.

#20 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:03 AM

Doug, which fish in the pictures do you think are grandis or heteroclitus? All of the Fundulus seem to be confluentus. You're right that the mouth of the St. John River, and that area of north Florida in general, is a biogeographic boundary for a wide range of fish taxa.



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