Suggestions for native tank inhabitants

I've done a bit of reading around here, and I'm beginning to suffer from information overload. Hopefully, you guys can help me narrow my search a little bit. Here are the basics of what I'm trying to do.

I've got a 75g that is going to be the future home of a stripe neck musk turtle, and either a southern painted turtle or some species of map turtle. My intent is to stock it with NA native fish, inverts, and plants. I was going to stick to southern Indiana native animals, but I think that might be a little stringent. I'm also breaking that rule with the turtles.

My present ideal for the tank is for it to be heavily structured with driftwood and heavily planted if the turtles will allow. The tank will be filled to the rim with a tall windowed canopy to accommodate basking spots via standing driftwood etc. Hopefully emergent plants will be an option as well.

As far as equipment goes I'll be running a fairly high volume canister. So the water will be turned over at least 4 or so times an hour. So I'd think any animals that require very calm water would not be good choices. I'm fairly flexible on lighting and will adapt that to the plants I end up choosing.

My present substrate plan is to have an inch or two of fluorite or some other plant friendly substrate and cover it with a grid secured to the bottom of the tank. From there I'll add another 2-3 inches of sand or some other light substrate for digging. My hope is that the grid will provide a stable base for the plants to root into and hopefully protect them from some of the abuse the turtles dish out. I'm going to give the turtles some time to grow(Probably around 6 months) before adding them to the 75g, so the plants should have some time to get stabilized and acclimated. My present attempts at planting anything have ended up with a tank full of plants that have been uprooted by digging.

Fish:
My original plan here was to go with pumpkinseeds. I've seen thousands of them over the years in local streams and they are one of the most beautiful fish I've ever seen in any environment. My worry is that they might get a little large for my needs and also aggressive towards the turtles which will be small animals for several years.

What would you guys recommend as good starting points to research here? I've seen a lot of great looking darters and I've seen some very interesting perch locally. My preference for any animal is that it be captive born and if you had links to any breeders that would be a huge help as well. I'm just a little overwhelmed at the moment with all these fish that I've never considered for an aquarium before.

Inverts:
Crayfish and clams will definitely be incorporated. I was also thinking of some sort of shrimp to include. I'm unfamiliar with NA shrimp, but is there anything similar to the natural colors of Neocaridina heteropoda(non-red cherry shrimp). I believe they are of Asian origin and I'd prefer something native if possible. Anything else that is a good fit would be more than welcome as well.

Plants:
I'm completely clueless here. I've got access to the stuff in local water bodies, but I don't know much about it. I'd like a good foreground cover plant like glossostigma, but it again is not a US native. Maybe some vals for some height. Some form of lilly pad might be nice, but I also need to find a good climber type plant that will grow terrestrial in a mesh above the water line. Any recommendations on plants that grow well and would probably handle a bit of abuse from a curious turtle?

Hello and welcome, Clayton!

First thing you need to know: Stripenecks and maps LOVE inverts. Your crays, clams, snails, etc. will be made short work of. These two species and paints are not very adept at catching fish, but you may lose a few now and again.

Also, any plants will be shredded, and if you go with paints, eaten.

So, you can either have your beautiful planted fish-and-invert tank, OR a turtle tank. They're just not compatible goals.

I agree with Nathan; been there, tried that, and it doesn't work unless you make that 75 gallons about 10 or more times larger. Several years ago I had a display in a nature center lobby that started out with hatchling turtles, some YOY yellow bullhead, SRBD and orangespotted sunfish, in a 75 gallon similiar to your description and after several months everyone wouldn't play nicely and had to be seperated.

Good points, and I should have been more thorough in the original post. These are not my first turtles. I'm very familiar with them and their care as well as their habits. Anything in the tank is potential food for the turtles and I understand that. I've dealt with this for quite a while and I've seen many a vision of mine fail due to turtle mischief.

However, I'd argue that you are being a little too black and white on the matter of plants. Many people have pulled off very nice looking planted tanks with turtles. They are not on the level of some of the amazing dedicated planted tanks, but they are quite nice. Regardless, even if I fail miserably yet again I'm going to try.

I've had varying levels of success in the plant department. I've got a red eared slider in a 120 gallon that I doubt I could plant even if it was a 500 gallon tank. Any plant matter that hits the water is simply gone within hours. I've had other tanks with smaller less herbivorous turtles that can keep some plants alive, but there is a lot of replanting on my part as the roots have nothing solid to hold on to and they are being constantly dislodged from the substrate.

I'm not worried about the inverts as that is their main role in the tank. They'll be there even if it is simply a bare bottom, but in a heavily structured tank they can last a very long time. I've got shrimp, clams, and crays that hold fairly steady populations in turtle tanks though I do generally supplement their numbers a couple of times a year. Snails I've had no luck with aside from the little guys that live in my canisters.

I've had the same experience with fish. If they are properly acclimated and healthy I have very few losses. If one is sluggish from a disease or hasn't settle in after acclimation they seem to become snacks though.

So given that I'm willing to have my hopes and dreams shattered do you have any pointers?

Edited by Clayton, 08 August 2008 - 03:28 PM.

How strongly do you want a biotope? I've actually done a good bit of research in a stream here in Middle Tennessee that is home to stripenecks, southern X midland paints, northern maps, and (in the stream mouth) Mississippi and Ouachita maps. I can tell you a bit about the other species found there if you want to try and get them.

I have a couple of stripenecks in a 29 gallon with a gambusia, two fantails, and two southern red-bellied dace that someone brought to me for ID. They have been surviving in the tank for several months now.

As far as shrimp go- we have two native freshwater genera: Macrobrachium (river shrimp- big, aggressive, native species hard to find) and Palaemonetes (ghost shrimp- 30 cents a piece at most any pet store).

My preference is certainly for a biotope. I don't mind expending some time, energy, and resources to make it happen. However, I agree that there are certainly challenges to face and I doubt a 75 gallon is large enough to make anything self-sustaining when it contains a high level predator like a turtle. I'm not unrealistic in my expectations, but I've got a goal in mind.

I would love to hear of the other species you've encountered. Middle TN is a great habitat and home to the turtle species I'm interested in. Even if I do not pursue them I'd be interested in hearing your experiences with them.

Have you experienced any aggression issues in your tank? Musks are not known for tolerating others of their species, especially in small enclosures. I've dealt with gambusia before, and I've seen Dace. However, I'm unfamiliar with the fan-tails.

My preference is certainly for a biotope. I don't mind expending some time, energy, and resources to make it happen. However, I agree that there are certainly challenges to face and I doubt a 75 gallon is large enough to make anything self-sustaining when it contains a high level predator like a turtle. I'm not unrealistic in my expectations, but I've got a goal in mind.

I would love to hear of the other species you've encountered. Middle TN is a great habitat and home to the turtle species I'm interested in. Even if I do not pursue them I'd be interested in hearing your experiences with them.

Have you experienced any aggression issues in your tank? Musks are not known for tolerating others of their species, especially in small enclosures. I've dealt with gambusia before, and I've seen Dace. However, I'm unfamiliar with the fan-tails.

None of those fish are particularly characteristic of the large streams inhabited by the turtles; I put them in my tank because I had nowhere else to put them. I just mentioned them because they seem able to coexist with the turtles, despite being bite-sized. I have not seen any aggression between my two stripenecks, but that may be because one is an adult and the other a juvenile; two adult males are generally not expected to get along.

Some of the most frequently encountered fish in this stream are too large for a 75; it has lots of smallmouth, hogsuckers, redhorses, gar, and so on. But I saw large numbers of moderate-sized fish and small fish, too. These are listed below:

Minnows:
Campostoma anomalum- Central Stoneroller
Clinostomus funduloides- Rosyside Dace
Cyprinella galactura and/or C. whipplei- Whitetail and Steelcolor Shiner
Luxilus chrysocephalus- Striped Shiner
Lythrurus fasciolaris- Scarlet Shiner
Nocomis effusus- Redtail Chub
Notropis telescopus- Telescope Shiner
Pimephales notatus- Bluntnose Minnow
Semotilus atromaculatus- Creek Chub

Catfish:
Noturus gyrinus- Tadpole Madtom

Killifish:
Fundulus catenatus- Northern Studfish
F. olivaceus- Blackspotted Topminnow

Sculpin:
Cottus carolinae- Banded Sculpin

Sunfish:
Ambloplites rupestris- Rockbass
Lepomis cyanellus- Green Sunfish
L. macrochirus- Bluegill
L. megalotis- Longear Sunfish

Darters:
Etheostoma blennioides- Greenside Darter
E. caeruleum- Rainbow Darter
E. flavum- Saffron Darter
E. rufilineatum- Redline Darter
Percina caprodes- Logperch

Doubtless other species occur there as well, but these are the ones I recall coming across at least once. Some of these species are widespread and can be collected in your area or purchased from some of the vendors on this forum. I'll talk about plants and geology a bit in another post. As far as inverts- there were plenty, but I don't know the IDs of many of them.

Thank you for taking the time to post that. There are some definite possibilities for fish there. So many of the darters seem to be native to my area, yet in all the years I've been seining the local creeks I've never seen anything with that much color.

In my experience the only fish that are highly at risk with turtles, aside from those that primarily eat fish, are slow moving bottom dwellers.

I only mentioned the aggression as I've heard from breeders that those turtles don't play well together even as hatchlings.

I've heard that from kinosternid keepers too, but I've never witnessed it.

The trouble with fish and turtles is- fish sleep. Sometimes turtles who ignore fish during the day will actively pursue them during the night, when the fish are vulnerable.