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FANTASY DIP NET

Started by Guest_netmaker_* , Aug 10 2008 12:59 PM

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#1 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 10 August 2008 - 12:59 PM

What if you all could design your own "User Friendly" Dip Net , but you had to work within certain parameters.
Could something like this work for you?

Keep in mind: EVERYTHING IS A COMPROMISE IN NET DESIGN......EVERYTHING!

Posted Image

A. Pole

Length of pole
Thickness of pole

What if you could have different lengths? What would they be?

FYI

The Frame Head would weigh approx. 2.5-3.5 lbs.
It would have a Chafe Bar on the front
It could hold a 5 gallon bucket of mud and muck in a vertical position without breaking
You could shove the edge into the substrate like a shovel blade and scop up a full load of mud, sand, rocks or shells without the frame breaking
The Frame Head would be interchangeable with 2 or 3 bolts or cotter pins

B. Frame

Length x width ? keep in mind that 12x12 will be the min. either in length or width

20" Length x 16" Width will be the Max.

So what size(s) would be ideal?

* Remember, with this Fantasy Dip Net you can have multiple frame heads with each one having a different net or any combination*

C. Basket Style: slow and tapered to a rounded -like bottom....not much depth, 2 seams

D. Back Slope : back of net slopes towards user ...really easy dumping

E. Dump Bag style: Load it up with 30-50 lbs of muck , mud and fish.....carry to where you want and untie the "dump" line

F. Crab net style: Bottom is sewn in and is a certain % reduced from the top frame size....4 seams

G. Valley style: EVERYTHING drops into a valley at the bottom of the net

How deep is User Friendly?

What if you could have 3 or 4 depths? What would they be?

Posted Image

MESH

Square is the measure of one side of a diamond.

What size mesh or what type mesh?
White and soft or treated?
Green or black?
Stiff like wire mesh or just a touch?

Thickness:
really light like Ace
Slightly heavier
..a lot heavier and almost bullet proof

Lets call this a Fantasy Dip Net.....[i]a What-If......[i] Give me some feed back if you want. I am very curious about this ...!

sa va,
nm

#2 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 01:24 PM

Fantasy indeed! I'm thinking the physics and economics of the materials, specifically metals or alloys, carbon fiber, net material, make this not feasible (e.g. carrying 30lbs of whatevr in a net with a >6 ft pole = snap or U shaped at the least) I've seen my share of 10' fiberglass handles snap like a toothpick with 1/4" mesh when sweeping through moving water and lifting up fish. I think you could even add more things to this. What about grip on the material used for the handle? Is it a conductive material (Some of us use electricity :mrgreen:

)? Why don't these things float when I drop them!

#3 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 10 August 2008 - 02:12 PM

Hmmm?

No problem...... You are probably far more experienced than I am in Dip Net usage.

But would you still consider taking a little time to fill in some answers anyway?

FYI

Just to say, its been done here in Louisiana already , at The USL Crawfish Research Station at Cade Experimental Farm 15 years back. I just found the prototype model in the old shed and I'm going to give it an update to meet "fishery" needs and not astacology requirements.

Holding 30 lbs at 5' was NOT a problem...6' feet or 8' feet may not be either
Floating? ....oh yea.... we had a solution for that........
Fiberglass...hollow core and thin walled at that ...never used the stuff!
Electricity? Its a fir wood handle .....and I don;t know about conductivity when its wet

Thank you for the feedback and I'd aprpeciate it if you would go along and humor me with some answers....the worse scenario is that I get egg (or Gumbo) all over my face when this doesn't work out.

FYI

One of YOUR brethern is going to receive this prototype with an assortment of net shapes for field testing.... I'll go so far as to say we will document the "sea trials' and publish it here no matter how miserable it fails (or suceeds).

Ok with you and the guys?

nm

#4 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 03:50 PM

I've often wondered if a large dip net with the opening a V shape maybe between 90-145 degree angle would be handy dipping darters and other rock hugging fishes used like a one handled mini seine. A dip net with a variety of shapes and sizes of net heads that are quickly exchanged would be great.

Edited by keepnatives, 10 August 2008 - 03:51 PM.

#5 Guest_netmaker_*

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 04:51 PM

I've often wondered if a large dip net with the opening a V shape maybe between 90-145 degree angle would be handy dipping darters and other rock hugging fishes used like a one handled mini seine. A dip net with a variety of shapes and sizes of net heads that are quickly exchanged would be great.

thank you for the feedback.

how deep of a net would you suggest? Style E. or G.
nm

#6 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 05:35 PM

Handle length: 45" (up to 48")
Handle diameter: 1.125"
Hoop: width 16" (chafe bar to handle) length 20" (chafe bar to chafe bar) Pardon me if I'm not reading this right.
Bag depth: I think on such a large dipnet, I could stand about 12" maybe 11" (If the net hoop is smaller the depth of the bag should be reduced a bit IMO)
Bag shape: F (but C might be best if the leading edge of the mesh will abrade with normal use)
Mesh shape and size: I honestly don't know what's an ideal balance between strength and "push" but I want a mesh with the least amount of material no matter how weak it is when using a fine mesh (1/8"). I guess I've already indicated I would like 1/8" mesh

Mesh material: Green or Black, flip a coin. I'd like the mesh to be pliable or at least one that will soften after a few uses.

This is fun but too many options! I might be asking for a bad design on the bag shape.

#7 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 10 August 2008 - 05:51 PM

Tele,

Thank you for the feedback too..........

Question to all;

The mesh thickness (not opening)does not seem to matter as much as the ability to move it through the water , Correct?

[attachment=6954:P0004140.JPG]

1/4" x 1/2" 1260 denier nylon raschel 1.14 sg x 32 lb. tensile break on one bar ( a side of any diamond)

[attachment=6955:P0004157.JPG]

1/8"x1/4" 1260 denier tire cord polyester 1.35 sg......very tough......very tough indeed..... (48lb. test break on any side of a diamond mesh)

handle length OK.
frame size OK
mesh size 1/8" x 1/4" correct?

Looks good.........

thank you too........

nm

#8 Guest_teleost_*

Guests

Posted 10 August 2008 - 07:08 PM

The 1/4" dimension on the diamond mesh is too big for some stuff. Any chance of something a bit smaller? Maybe 3/16 X 3/32"?

#9 Guest_netmaker_*

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 09:44 PM

The 1/4" dimension on the diamond mesh is too big for some stuff. Any chance of something a bit smaller? Maybe 3/16 X 3/32"?

Yes.

But could 1/8"x 1/4" work as well?

1/8 x 1/4" is a standard size in a lot of YOY trawls( the HBB or OT-4 in the Big Mo Palid survey, the Outer shell in the Herzog -Armadillo trawl aka Missouri trawl , the Gerken Siamese Separator trawl , the Beam'R Benthic net and a collection of odd and end nets used in marine fisheries off the East Coast on pelagic species....... this size is also used by the mitigation work done around the Upper Big Mo and Mississippi with Pocket Seines.

thank you for the feedback.

nm

#10 Guest_wegl2001_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 11:07 AM

Check out this guy. http://www.duraframedipnet.com/ These nets are a bit on the expensive side but I collected with mine for 6 years and only had to replace the bag a couple of times. I do a lot of collecting in swampy areas and it could handle a load that I could barely lift with no problem. I used to go thru 2-3 of the Cummings nets in a year, so I think it was worth it in the long run. The handle and frame are made of aircraft aluminum so it is light weight and rigid. It was a great net and I would still be using it if I hadn't left it on the creek bank at the Greensboro convention. :blush:

Hey Fritz, if you ever get back to that last creek below the hatchery you just might get a free net! He will build basicly any configuration you want. I recently purchased one of the hex shaped ones. Had to save my pennies for awhile. I like it much better than the rectangular style for dipping under vegetation and catching topminnows. No matter which direction you have to lift the hex design gives you a good lifting angle. For catching topminnows no matter whitch direction you swing at them the net has a flat surface instead of the corner of the rectangle. It doesn't seem to work as well as a kick net. The shorter sides don't provide enough contact with the stream bed. I have only used it as a kick net a couple of times, and the streams were very low, so it may work better with more water.

#11 Guest_daveneely_*

Guests

Posted 11 August 2008 - 12:29 PM

I'll give Duraframe a resounding two thumbs up, too... durable as all heck, but they are pricey.

Netmaker, if you can build a fiberglass-wrapped aluminum handled net with a quick-removable hex head similar to Duraframe, but substantially cheaper I'd be really interested... I also wonder how much stronger they'd be if you fill the handle shaft with expanding poly sprayfoam...

Dave

#12 Guest_netmaker_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 12:48 PM

Ok.....Its lunch time and my fried catfish are waiting ........

this Duraframe looks real heavy duty.......even by my standards.

Questions;

What do the Roller Springs do?
Is the frame made with hollow tubing or steel rod?
What diameter?
What are the handles made from : (fiberglass, wood)
Finally, what kind of cost are you looking at for something like this

?

Dave,

Just asking? Why fiberglass and not solid wood?

Thank you for the feedback and I'd still like to know what you all call expensive.

sa va,
nm

#13 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 06:10 PM

thank you for the feedback.

how deep of a net would you suggest? Style E. or G.
nm

I'm thinking maybe F, actually I like the looks of the 3 foot width duraframe wonder if that would be too much too handle though.

#14 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 07:01 PM

This is what I call exspensive Dip Net Handle & Dip Net Bag. Those damn things have gone up substantially twice this year alone. Interestingly, the duraframe frame is the exact same thing as the Smith Root. The frames are hollow and handles are fiberglass. The roller springs look rather interesting, I'd imagine those allow the net to move along the substrate rather nicely. It is heavy duty, and all of it is needed for my uses. For hobby collecting cummins dipnets are fine but a little short. Because they are so cheap I don't feel bad having to replace them more often than others. I've also owned one of Mark's before and been really pleased. Honestly I don't think I could pick or make an ideal net. It would have to allow for a head to be changed easily, I prefer the netting to be inside the hoop, wrapped heavily, or protected with a gaurd. I like 3/16" Ace mesh but would want a 1/4" Delta as my secondary choice. Yeah small stuff falls through unless you are using 1/8" mesh but lets be serious, most of the stuff that falls through 3/16" would otherwise be lumped in the small silvery nondescript minnow category. I like Dave's idea of a fiberglass wrapped aluminum handle with the foam inside. I guess I'm skeptical that wood is the answer for a handle with lighter, cheaper, stronger are my main concerns; then again maybe it is with the cost of metals.

Interesting to see duraframe was advertising what is essentially athletic tape. I've always custom taped my net handles that get heavy work usage, much like a hocke or lacrosse stick. Now if someone could make an electrofishing glove that is a combination between a high end batting glove with the 10,000 V insultation like a linesman glove...

#15 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 11 August 2008 - 07:52 PM

Questions:

Smith Root
$200 handles
$350 frames (even if its heavy duty)
Is that the price you all have been paying for this ? For real???

Does Duraframe sell the same rig for this much????

Can someone tell me if these frames are hollow tubing or solid rod?
What diameter?

#16 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 08:10 PM

Yes it is really $500.00 for that combination. There are some comparables, knockoffs, and lighter duty versions that cost less, but when I need to net a large fish (carp, redhorse, snakehead) from 8 feet away in flowing water while a shocking boat is moving that style of net is really the only thing that can work. Don't know what the duraframes cost but at 75.00 a net for a hoop guard I'd imagine they aren't cheap. I'm not saying I would use something like that for alot of what a majority of people here use their dipnets for, I'm just trying to show the variety of uses, hence variety of configurations necessary. Sorry if I'm derailing your questioning too much.

I like Uland's previous description alot for specifics for a "collecting" net versus a "sampling" net. I'd probably go with a 3/16" mesh instead of 1/8", shape F or G. I'm not a fan of deep bags (10-12"). I would go with trapezoidal/pentagon shaped net frame, flat at the leading edge, 12-16" at the bar, 12-16" from handle to bar. As you've noticed from my earlier posts, solid wood handles 100+ days out of the year are growing old.

#17 Guest_netmaker_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 08:21 PM

Not at all.

I am learning all sorts of new things here.........

Any idea on the weight of an entire rig.........8' pole x ?" x ?" width frame?

nm

#18 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 08:45 PM

As am I, I mean honestly how much has changed with this technology yet plenty of things are available . I'll try and give you an estimate sometime soon, maybe off the shipping slip if I can't get them on a digital scale soon.

#19 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 10:34 PM

hey nm,

Matt hinted at why wood doesn't work in his answer -- we're running 1000V @ 20A of DC power into the river off of electrofishing boats, and wood conducts when it gets wet.

I think the Duraframe heads are tubular aluminum; it's a very heavy gauge though, as you can stand on the things and not bend them. I'd rough-estimate the weight of a DF 8' net with an 18" head at about 3 or 4 pounds, but I might be way off if Matt can get one on a scale. I'm not a fan of the rollers; I'd rather just use the slit Tygon tubing over the net rail and replace the tubing ~ every 6 months of wear...

I used a Loki net a while back that had longitudinal grooves along the tubular aluminum handle; I really liked the handling and feel of that net, but it wouldn't (and didn't) stand up to heavy use without reinforcement. I like the idea of slapping some tape and fiberglass resin on it, and/or filling the handle with rigid foam. I think the stock net was ~ $40; much more reasonable than DF...

Dave