Brain Teaser Sunfish

I'm down with the humilis x gibbosus diagnosis for my mystery fish. I'd say there are some serious fish heads here if so many can tease that out of a few photos! In a tank it was quite an attractive fish with o-spot colors and a high back. Larger than the other o-spots we got. As for the second hybrid, yes, I think it's a hybrid, I'd call it bluegill x green. Don't see where you're getting o-spot in there. I've seen fish like this before in places where o-spots were not observed. I actually don't recall whether we saw greens that day, but there is very little water in Ohio that does not host greens, and I can assure you they're in the Olentangy. Brian can attest that I did not create this o-spot x p-seed hybrid. He saw one independently on another day upstream near/in the reservoir. natureman187, I think your fish looks like a bluegill x p-seed. No microlophus were observed, and redears are very rare here in my experience, so the only other with a red dot in the ear flap were gibbosus and actually megalotis that occur in the Olentangy sometimes have one or more red spots. I don't know of any stocking. Just the presence of the two suspected parents and the apparent rarity of the "hybrid". I've never seen this hybrid before. Brian saw at least one other this year, so maybe conditions were ripe this year or it's a new trend. I suppose DNA analysis could prove it. It may still be at my brother's place, but we caught a gar just before I left, and it may have become gar feed by now Thanks for all the "well reasoned and insightful" commentary

As for the second hybrid, yes, I think it's a hybrid, I'd call it bluegill x green. Don't see where you're getting o-spot in there. I've seen fish like this before in places where o-spots were not observed.

I can not see the green. Look at opercular tab coloration, slope of head, delicate highly extendible premaxilla. Apparent large mouth size from extension.

I do not think this second fish in question is a greengill. It looks more like the same hybrid as the first fish to me, just displaying different characters, or a bit washed out. I am far from a sunfish expert, but I do fish a lot of farm ponds, and most are stocked with greengills, and this fish looks nothing like them. In fact its mouth and head shape are almost identical to the first fish.

This is a large greengill.

I can not see the green. Look at opercular tab coloration, slope of head, delicate highly extendible premaxilla. Apparent large mouth size from extension.

Well, yeah, that's where I see green: the longer snout and larger mouth would be the green sunfish traits, and unusual for a bluegill. And the fact that the opercular tab is shorter than in bluegill and o-spot, so it's green-like. This is a small fish and color is not fully developed, but I also feel that the vertical bands are suggestive of those found on greens (and longears). Overall coloration and body shape remind me of bluegill as well as the mouth which is too small for a green and too big for a 'gill, hence, intermediate between them. Also, most of the hybrids I see are bluegill hybrids, since bluegills are the most abundant sunfishes, and they are abundant in the Olentangy. So much so that I didn't bother to photograph them, since they hold little interest for me.

Hey Skipjack, good to hear from you. Re greengills, I assume those stocked are intentional crosses that are made in a very specific and selective way to generate desirable characteristics. I think centrarchid will attest that the outcomes of crosses can have very different phenotypes (appearances) depending on which species was the mother and which the father, and the source of the brooders, and changes that stick over successive years of captive breeding, as would be expected of stocked fish. Wild fish just do their thing with no one supervising, so I suppose their outcomes will be somewhat different.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about _this_ fish now:

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I know I'm not much fun and maybe a dope, but that fish looks like a bluegill. Peace, I'm outta here.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about _this_ fish now:

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I speak of same and it looks like a [bluegill x orange spotted] rather than green x bluegill and in my opinion almost certainly not a pure bluegill.

I don't see where you would be getting o-spot in that fish. I'm going to suggest another possibility completely. The bars on the side look rather longearish, so maybe a green x longear. I definitely see Green in this guy but I'm not so sure about the other half, although I think it is either bluegill or longear.

I don't see where you would be getting o-spot in that fish. I'm going to suggest another possibility completely. The bars on the side look rather longearish, so maybe a green x longear. I definitely see Green in this guy but I'm not so sure about the other half, although I think it is either bluegill or longear.

I do not know the proper name for the structure / method of articulation but the orange spotted sunfish and both crappies have the ability to extend the premaxillae out much further than the other sunfishes. The bones of the head associated with that function give the fish a Roman nosed profile, especially when the premaxillae are extended. Bluegill come in a distant fourth for that characteristic, green somewhat behind. The mouths of the other possibilites (redear, pumpkinseed, the longears) are more suited for biting with the heavier premaxillae that do not entend so far our. Coloration outside of range for bluegill I am familiar with, especially the northerns unless you have something up that way I have yet to see. Ear tabs look like faint orange spotted with the pale ~45 degree bars bordering black spot, similar to the previous hybrid we seem to have had aggreement on. For future reference I think several fish of similar size and typical for the known local populations should be photographed for comparison whenever such questionable fish are encountered, unless somebody has genetics lab handy which might be less subjective if the proper knowns are available.

It's really great that there are so many divergent opinions about all this. Makes for very enlightening and challenging discussion. Toward that end, here's a shot of a green sunfish from Ohio that displays the light 45 degree ear flap margins similar to those on the second hybrid we're talking about:

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I would be willing to accept that the hybrid is a Green x Longear. In a juvenile fish of this size, it would not be unusual for the colors and the morphology, such as the ear flap length, to be under developed and so not immediately recognized as coming from the longear.

Now that I look at that green sunfish photo, it strikes me that the character that is lacking in the hybrid, the absence of which makes me peg it as a bluegill hybrid, is the light and bluish reticulations on the cheek and opercle. These markings are almost always present even on small longears and greens, and are one of the traits that makes them easy to ID, unless you've got dollars in the mix. P-seeds have them too, but their verticle bands are distinctive. Anyway, I'm going back to my original position: bluegill x green.

Now that I look at that green sunfish photo, it strikes me that the character that is lacking in the hybrid, the absence of which makes me peg it as a bluegill hybrid, is the light and bluish reticulations on the cheek and opercle. These markings are almost always present even on small longears and greens, and are one of the traits that makes them easy to ID, unless you've got dollars in the mix. P-seeds have them too, but their verticle bands are distinctive. Anyway, I'm going back to my original position: bluegill x green.

Good Point - I agree with you.

How long is the hybrid in question?

I am not as confident as I would like to be about the second hybrid being a bluegill x orange spotted other than it is hybrid. I make and see F1 hybrid green x northern bluegill routinely. If I produced a fish like the hybrid in question and intended to treat like a hybrid bluegill (green x northern bluegill), then I would look very carefully at my brood stock.

Just out of curiosity, we will attempt to make the northen bluegill x orange spotted and northern x green sunfish cross and rear those fish up in a pond with pure half sibling (northern bluegill). Dam will be bluegill. Pond rearing should yeild animals resembling wild caugh more than tank reared will. The fishes will be collected when they approximate the total length of the hybrid in question and photographed. Multiple animals will be treated to get some handle on the variation. If any other hybrids considered likely based nominal sunfishes occuring in the drainage, let me know. I think those I have access to will be similar enought for a comparison.

I the animal is hybrid but not F1, then resolving such an issue will be more suited to use of molecular techniques.