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Frecklebelly


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#1 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 07:36 PM

The N fork of the Red River near Slade, KY is turning out to have quite a collection of darters, if you look in the right place. And I'm now beginning to see a pattern to my collecting trips. The last sampling seems to be the best. Just as I'm ready to go home, let's try one more place...

What I found today - the frecklebelly darter, occasionally a source of consternation. This one is a whopper, a little under 4" long. I was just about to leave for the day, when I put the net down in a fast moving stream coming from under a tree that had fallen over. Just shiners. Then, I took a stick and poked in the dead leaves piled up at the top of the current, and this big fellow popped out. That's four varieties of darters I've found in the N fork of the Red River so far, albeit in three different locations. And my good luck has held up, I've found a new species of darter on every trip there.

Posted Image

And a word to those searching this area - stay clear of the stream that comes out of the north end of Natural Bridge Park. It's dirty, there was an oily sheen on a couple of the pools, and I found several diseased fish in it. (though I believe I saw a longnose gar prowling around)

Edited by JohnO, 23 August 2008 - 07:38 PM.


#2 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 07:47 PM

I believe that is a Dusky Darter (Percina sciera). I could be wrong as I'm not sure if they're present in the Red river. If I'm correct, I can say they seem to be found in similar places so you're not far from finding them. Nice photo as well. Keep up the good work.

#3 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 08:26 PM

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Here's an excellent shot of a Frecklebelly:

http://forum.nanfa.o...hl=frecklebelly

Those percina darters are all so similar. Well mostly very similar. Some are distinctive. But an awful lot of them look just like those two. And those wacky taxonomists keep splitting them into more and more species that look just alike! :biggrin: It' no wonder we can't tell one from another!

Here's an excellent shot of a dusky:

http://gallery.nanfa...ra 049.jpg.html

On the Frecklebelly, note the symetrical arrangement of the spots at the base of the tail, vs an asymetrical arrangement on the dusky. Also note the continuous stripes down either side of the back of the Frecklebelly and the very prominent dark speckles/freckles on the belly below the lateral band. Both of these are lacking on the dusky. Just for your general interest, since you are in Kentucky, the blackside darter (P maculata) looks very similar to the dusky, except that it has a symetrical arrangement of the spots at the base of the tail, like the Frecklebelly.

#4 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 08:52 PM

I stand corrected. These darters will be the death of my mental processes yet.

Checked the KY Fish&Game site, duskys are listed in the Powell/Menifee county area. And from the photos they linked to, the dusky seems to have far fewer spots on it's belly, just like this bad boy. Well, I've been wanting to find a percina anyway.

So there's yet another variety in that area I haven't found yet...

#5 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 07:49 AM

Just shiners.


Not to derail your thread... an hey, that is a great picture... but don't say 'just shiner'... I mean shiners are fantastic, pteronotropis, hydrophlox, cyprinella... these are some of the greatest aquarium fish you could ask for! And theres more than a few of us that just love the little silvery fish!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#6 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 02:40 PM

just a quick question.

Is the Dusky Darter and Dusky Tail Darter two sperate fish??

The KY fish dept list the Dusky Tail to be endangered and only found in the Big South Fork of the Cumberland in McCreary County. (note that fish looks nothing like a duskytail darter)

#7 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 02:46 PM

They are different fish. Duskytail (Etheostoma percnurum) is a member of the subgenus Catanotus, the barcheek darters. Yes, your are correct, they look nothing alike. Johns picture is of a Dusky darter, Percina sciera.

#8 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 07:53 AM

Also, the duskytail occurs only in southern KY, at least according to the KY Fish&Game site. McCreary Co is down near the Tenn border, used to date a girl whose family owned a large piece of forest land down there. Hmmm... they list the cumberland arrow darter as resident in Whitley and McCreary. I might have to call her and see if I can visit that farm, if she will still speak to me.

One of the things I do before going into a new area, and I'd suggest everyone do this when collecting in KY, is to review the KY Fish&Game site's endangered/threatened/special concern list, and see what is listed in the area you're going to. Doesn't mean that you won't find something they don't know about, but it's a very good starting place. I can't often figure out what it is, but I can usually tell what it isn't.

The more I watch the real frecklebelly I brought back, the more I want to go find a couple more. That is one weird darter, and actually quite elegant looking.

#9 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 08:02 AM

I'd like a couple of those as well...I'll have to roll with you to Red River next time John.

I was reviewing the county species list yesterday and I noticed that they have some species listed as endangered, threatened, etc... that are not listed in their yearly fishing publication. For exampled the Cumberland arrow darter was listed as threatened or endangered but wasn't in the publication. I spoke to a member of the Fish and wildlife and he told me only the four fish listed in the publication couldn't be collected. Seems as if there is some misinformation within the dept of fish and wildlife.

#10 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 08:47 AM

It's probably not so much misinformation but a manifestation of the fluid nature of fisheries regulations. Fishing regulation booklets are static, they are printed and distributed, but regulations continue to be brought up, ammended, etc. This could represent the state of KY's recognition of the Cumberland Arrow Darter as a distinct species after the publication of the booklet. For example, the state of TN listed tippecanoe darter on their T&E list however it was recognized as a distinct species, the golden darter, several years earlier.

#11 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 06:02 PM

Stictogaster should be regarded as threatened, and even though there are no legal ramifications to owning them, they should be collected very responsibly. They are on the new list that KY is soon to make public. I expect that they will be illegal to collect in the near future.

#12 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 10:27 PM

The KY Fish&Game website is the most up to date listing, it's what I use.

Josh, you need to go south. You're probably not much more than an hour's drive from the McCreary/Whitley/Rockcastle county areas, and there are all sorts of interesting darters down there that can't be found in the gorge area. I'm thinking about heading down there some time soon, though it's more like a two hour drive for me. There are dozens of small streams that drain into Cumberland and Norris lakes, that should make excellent collection locations.

We're living right next to Darter Central, may as well take advantage of it.

#13 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 06:07 AM

A wise man once told me "Collecting rare fishes does not make them rare." Personally, I would much rather have citizens collecting fish species to learn about them and pass the knowledge on to others. The impact is minimal when compared to other threats. However, if everyone agreed with this then we would not have the hilariously preachy messages every now and then. So I say, if it is not listed collect it and learn about it while you can. From a scientific point, another wise man once told me "Get them into jars and freezers while we can." It is a cynical, but realistic view.

#14 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 07:44 AM

Well, yes and no. My fascinating with native fish in general and darters in particular began when I was but a wee lad, wondering what those colorful little fish that I found in the creek on our farm were. (rainbows) I've been posting a few darter shots on a couple of photography forums, and people are amazed that these brightly colored little fish exist at all, let alone in local streams. Getting ready to put together a little beginner's web page on darters, just to let a few people know what can be found, and how beautiful they are. Showing people what's in the streams can generate support for keeping the streams clean and natural.

OTOH, my conscience won't let me contribute to their downfall. Granted, taking one or two rare darters out of a stream probably won't lead to their extinction, and publishing photos of them can contribute to additional support, but I can do that with a portable photo tank and not deplete the population. I have to know that I did the right thing, and the right thing is to leave the rare ones to the people that are trained to properly study them and record their findings. The best contribution I can make is to pass the word on what mining and development are destroying. Photos work just fine for that. So rather than keeping the rare ones, I'm working on getting better photos of them.

A wise man once told me "Collecting rare fishes does not make them rare." Personally, I would much rather have citizens collecting fish species to learn about them and pass the knowledge on to others. The impact is minimal when compared to other threats. However, if everyone agreed with this then we would not have the hilariously preachy messages every now and then. So I say, if it is not listed collect it and learn about it while you can. From a scientific point, another wise man once told me "Get them into jars and freezers while we can." It is a cynical, but realistic view.


Edited by JohnO, 26 August 2008 - 07:45 AM.


#15 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 03:34 PM

Outstanding!

#16 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 07:55 AM

Well, you learning about frecklebelly darters by capturing a couple for your aquarium or photo tank is not going to "contribute to their downfall."

The fact you posted a picture of P. sciera thinking it was a frecklebelly darter only amplifies my point that you need to go out capture the animal to learn what it looks like, its habitat, etc.

So if you are going to put together a page on darters, I would suggest not being too worried about your impacts of collecting. It would be a shame to put up a page and make the mistakes similar to the frecklebelly-P. sciera gaff. A "beginner's" page is no excuse for mistakes that could be alleviated by getting to know the critters you are posting about.

Also, if you all are really concerned about freshwater fish species, there is something that you can do on the first Tuesday of November 2008.


Well, yes and no. My fascinating with native fish in general and darters in particular began when I was but a wee lad, wondering what those colorful little fish that I found in the creek on our farm were. (rainbows) I've been posting a few darter shots on a couple of photography forums, and people are amazed that these brightly colored little fish exist at all, let alone in local streams. Getting ready to put together a little beginner's web page on darters, just to let a few people know what can be found, and how beautiful they are. Showing people what's in the streams can generate support for keeping the streams clean and natural.

OTOH, my conscience won't let me contribute to their downfall. Granted, taking one or two rare darters out of a stream probably won't lead to their extinction, and publishing photos of them can contribute to additional support, but I can do that with a portable photo tank and not deplete the population. I have to know that I did the right thing, and the right thing is to leave the rare ones to the people that are trained to properly study them and record their findings. The best contribution I can make is to pass the word on what mining and development are destroying. Photos work just fine for that. So rather than keeping the rare ones, I'm working on getting better photos of them.


Edited by TomNear, 04 September 2008 - 07:58 AM.


#17 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 12:22 PM

Point taken, though the first frecklebelly photo I found online (turns out it was a lousy one) did look a lot like that dusky. And, what I thought was a slightly odd looking greenside turned out to be an emerald. As I prowl further east and south in KY, I may inadvertenly get an endangered darter or two. In reality, getting one or two rare fish out of an otherwise healthy stream is probably not going to extinct it. The greatest threat to them is commercial and residential land development destroying the habitat. Best counter to that is public awareness of what is being destroyed. Right now, most darter information is in the form of rather dry academic journals. I'd like to see darter photos and information put into a form that would attract a more general audience. So far, the shots I've put onto photographic forms have generated a very enthusiastic response, most people don't even know these beautiful little fish exist at all.

However, you appeared to be openly advocating collecting endangered species, and I just don't think that deliberately collecting endangered species is a good idea, legally or ethically. If I read you wrong, then I apologise. Right now, the darter collection situation in KY is relatively unregulated. Best way to insure that it remains like that is to treat the privilige responsibly.




Well, you learning about frecklebelly darters by capturing a couple for your aquarium or photo tank is not going to "contribute to their downfall."

The fact you posted a picture of P. sciera thinking it was a frecklebelly darter only amplifies my point that you need to go out capture the animal to learn what it looks like, its habitat, etc.

So if you are going to put together a page on darters, I would suggest not being too worried about your impacts of collecting. It would be a shame to put up a page and make the mistakes similar to the frecklebelly-P. sciera gaff. A "beginner's" page is no excuse for mistakes that could be alleviated by getting to know the critters you are posting about.

Also, if you all are really concerned about freshwater fish species, there is something that you can do on the first Tuesday of November 2008.



#18 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 07:51 AM

Indeed, I advocate a view where one should (paraphrasing Agassiz) study the pages of rivers in addition to the books. Look, you can scare yourself into a frenzy about taking a rare fish out of a stream to have it in your aquaria, etc. However, it is not illegal, I think you should do it. This is the way you will learn about these species.

If you really want to protect these species, don't have that hamburger for lunch and think about your own footprint on the planet. On the other hand, I think it is to the benefit of these species that you get out there, take a picture, learn where it lives, keep it in your aquarium, and make your proposed website. The impact of collecting is minimal to non-existent. To view it otherwise is just an uneducated perspective that has no basis.


Point taken, though the first frecklebelly photo I found online (turns out it was a lousy one) did look a lot like that dusky. And, what I thought was a slightly odd looking greenside turned out to be an emerald. As I prowl further east and south in KY, I may inadvertenly get an endangered darter or two. In reality, getting one or two rare fish out of an otherwise healthy stream is probably not going to extinct it. The greatest threat to them is commercial and residential land development destroying the habitat. Best counter to that is public awareness of what is being destroyed. Right now, most darter information is in the form of rather dry academic journals. I'd like to see darter photos and information put into a form that would attract a more general audience. So far, the shots I've put onto photographic forms have generated a very enthusiastic response, most people don't even know these beautiful little fish exist at all.

However, you appeared to be openly advocating collecting endangered species, and I just don't think that deliberately collecting endangered species is a good idea, legally or ethically. If I read you wrong, then I apologise. Right now, the darter collection situation in KY is relatively unregulated. Best way to insure that it remains like that is to treat the privilige responsibly.



#19 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 08:33 AM

Tom, you leave yourself open to nitpicking about collecting have no real impact. That isn't the case for some extremely endemic species, such as Devil's Hole Pupfish or Barrens Topminnow, where the effective breeding population is very low. I could see a devil's argument being made to keep, say, flame chubs; they're disappearing spring by spring system, so keep (or at least observe) a few today while they're still around. But your bottom argument is right, that people should observe nature so that they can better understand and enjoy it. If you want to study nature, study nature, not books...

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 09:52 AM

But your bottom argument is right, that people should observe nature so that they can better understand and enjoy it. If you want to study nature, study nature, not books...


I completely agree with many of the points said in this conversation. If it takes a threatened or vulnerable species like the beautiful Percina aurantiaca or Pteronotropis weleka to get somebody interested in native fishes, then so be it. I hardly start to get worried about a fishes protection when people show up to the stream with an interest in the fish, I get worried when the bulldozers show up....

Blake




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