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Collecting Mussel Shells


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#1 Guest_PhilipKukulski_*

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 09:56 PM

I can't find the thread taking about how to clean and seal freshwater mussel shells. I can't even find my post to the thread. Well, here is a continuation of that thread:

You can't possess freshwater mussel shells of endangered species.

From the Endangered Species Act
"Sec. 3 ( 8 ) The term “fish or wildlife” means any member of the animal kingdom, including
without limitation any mammal, fish, bird (including any migratory, nonmigratory,
or endangered bird for which protection is also afforded by treaty or other international
agreement), amphibian, reptile, mollusk, crustacean, arthropod or other invertebrate,
and includes any part, product, egg, or offspring thereof, or the dead
body or parts thereof.
Sec. 3 (19) The term “take” means to harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap,
capture, or collect, or to attempt to engage in any such conduct.
PROHIBITED ACTS Sec. 9 (B) take any such species within the United States or the territorial sea of the
United States;"

Moderators, feel free to move this post into the correct thread.
OR
If the thread was deleted, I would like to ask,
"How can anyone correct their understanding of the law if the whole thread is gone?

Edited by PhilipKukulski, 05 October 2008 - 09:58 PM.


#2 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 10:04 PM

Posting questionable content puts the staff in a tough position. We don't know every regulation in every state and when something questionable is posted, it is taken offline, in order to protect the poster as well as NANFA as an organization. The poster is then contacted privately to discuss the issue. Unfortunately we aren't able to contact every poster in a thread to explain the actions.

#3 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 10:06 PM

Many states have restrictive laws about the possession of mussel shells as part of anti-poaching activities. The possession of even unlisted species without a commercial or scientific permit is illegal. It might seem crazy that you can't be in the possession of a common species like a pink heelsplitter or elephant ear, but that's the law. The Forum doesn't want to encourage such activities by supporting discussions involving taking shells. The Marine Police in states in the Ohio/Tennessee drainages will enforce these laws, so it ain't no joke.

#4 Guest_PhilipKukulski_*

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 11:01 AM

<clip> The Forum doesn't want to encourage such activities by supporting discussions involving taking shells.
<clip>


Yet, the forum should serve to educate people on regulations regarding mussel shells.

#5 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 12:08 PM

See... http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=4650

and... http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=3321

We can't force people to read them. Although we could start banning people who don't follow our guidance. But then we are perceived as tyrants.

#6 Guest_PhilipKukulski_*

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 06:09 PM

See... http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=4650

and... http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=3321

We can't force people to read them. Although we could start banning people who don't follow our guidance. But then we are perceived as tyrants.


From the above threads:
"Again I will stress, if you don't know what it is and/or if it's legal, do not collect. When in doubt don't do it!"
"Status_of_Mussels.pdf ( 3.63MB )"


I can download
On the origin of species by Charles Darwin
in 1.23 MB.

You expect people to read 3.63MB document? (3 times the Darwin's book)


I thought the purpose of this forum was to facilitate the spread of information.


Yes, delete posts that discuss actions that don't fall within the law,
but not the whole thread,
and
get the correct information out and in an accessible form.

Edited by PhilipKukulski, 06 October 2008 - 06:11 PM.


#7 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 06:21 PM

You can lead a horse to water...

So basically delete the first post and leave the rest? What is the point in that? It isn't our responsibility to make sure everyone knows the law in their respected locale. We do what we can... There is no one stopping you or anyone else from posting information.

#8 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 07:29 PM

Phil, Darwin wasn't able to use digitized images in his book... I think we're trapped in repeating basic things over and over again on this list since many people don't know, and even worse, don't know they don't know. We unavoidably hold people (especially each other on the list) to high standards. What alternative is there?

#9 Guest_PhilipKukulski_*

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 08:51 AM

Phil, Darwin wasn't able to use digitized images in his book... I think we're trapped in repeating basic things over and over again on this list since many people don't know, and even worse, don't know they don't know. We unavoidably hold people (especially each other on the list) to high standards. What alternative is there?


What is this? a trap?

There have been alternatives mentioned by many people on THIS forum:
1) better links to solid information on NANFA main site
2) Make a FAQ
3) set a 'keyword' convention so people can find FAQs
4) make a wiki
5) individuals can take it upon themselves to collect and summarize repeated topics into one post - and I have seen this done
6) encourage people to search the forum. Most questions have already been answered. New questions should start by explaining how their current question differs from what has already been posted.

#10 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 09:07 AM

All of that's true, but it still begs the question of people knowing in the first place that collecting mussel shells is likely illegal in their state. That's the conversation I see us having over and over regardless of ancillary search mechanisms we have, although such mechanisms could level the learning curve.

#11 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 09:23 AM

Phil, there is this thing called 'personal responsibility'. But I will still answer your statements/questions.

1) there is nothing stopping ANYONE from posting links to the main NANFA site
2) no one is stopping ANYONE from doing so
3) so now we have to tell people what to search for?
4) wasn't Jase making a wiki?
5) same as #2
6) whenever a duplicate topic is brought up, people are pointed to previous topics and asked to search the forum first

From NANFA's Code of Ethics :

* It is the responsibility of members to acquaint themselves with, and abide by, the collecting, fishing and fish transfer regulations of each Country, State or Province in which they collect, transfer, or ship fish.

It is already listed in the Forum Guidelines as well.

#12 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 06:37 PM

I update the sticky on mussels, shells, and identification at least once a month, usually more. NANFA is under no obligation to educate people on the law regarding possession of mussels and their shells. They are not within the scope of the organization. Because the occassional post came from the few of us that work with mussels and the rare post of a mussel encounter by someone who is not familiar I took the time to write the sticky and compile links.

Phil, I'll get back to your original question regarding how to clean mussels. If we are going to really teach people how to properly process legally collected shells I will gladly (and I was in the process of it) or work with anyone to write that post. However, I, many malacologists, and curators would disagree with two things you said. 1) using wire brushes and 2) using a chemical sealant. If a toothbrush cannot take off a substance stuck onto a shell removing the substance will damage the true character of the specimen. Wire brushes or anything that abrasive should rarely be used. The same goes for a chemical sealent. There are certain shells that naturally have such a sheen on them (P. ohioensis) . Sealing a shell of a similar species (P. alatus) could cause unnecessary confusion. While both actions may make a shell look nicer they distort the true likeness of the specimen, which is exactly what you don't want to do.

The entire thread was deleted because of many of the posts not just the original post. I tried to salvage it in it's entirety for over a week. As soon as everyone starts going "it's legal in my state" or I" don't see anything about it here" or " in whatever state we can take anything we want" or "why does it matter if it's dead" there is nothing but misinformation and confusion, the exact opposite of facilitating information. There have been many links and files posted regarding state regulations for fish collection but it is the personal responsibility of the individual to know regulations/laws and how they relate to their actions.

I don't expect people to read those .pdf's but I hope they do since it contains every state listing for every species. It's as close to a one stop shop for finding out if something is protected as you can get. Since when does file size equate to page numbers? It's 18 pages, counting the cover and many half pages of pictures. Origin of Species is on average 500 pages (30 times larger).

Points 1-5 all get back to the same old situation. People need to go ahead and volunteer themselves to do these things. I think you've brought up and restated some great ideas, but no one steps up to do it.

#13 Guest_PhilipKukulski_*

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 08:14 PM

<clip>
Phil, I'll get back to your original question regarding how to clean mussels. If we are going to really teach people how to properly process legally collected shells I will gladly (and I was in the process of it) or work with anyone to write that post. However, I, many malacologists, and curators would disagree with two things you said. 1) using wire brushes and 2) using a chemical sealant. If a toothbrush cannot take off a substance stuck onto a shell removing the substance will damage the true character of the specimen. Wire brushes or anything that abrasive should rarely be used. The same goes for a chemical sealent. There are certain shells that naturally have such a sheen on them (P. ohioensis) . Sealing a shell of a similar species (P. alatus) could cause unnecessary confusion. While both actions may make a shell look nicer they distort the true likeness of the specimen, which is exactly what you don't want to do.
<clip>


Hypothetically,
how would one preserve a mussel shell as a specimen?

A curiosity from a chemical standpoint.



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