We have a site on a study I'm doing that is the farthest west I've ever caught E. zonatum (Clear Creek near Hempstead, Brazos drainage), so I decided to go back this morning and get a few to keep alive in a very well planted tank. Everything I've read says they get up to 3", but after catching 30+ at this site, I'm starting to wonder... The biggest ones I've seen in the past month-and-a-half are 3/4". I'm assuming that these are YOY, but then where are the adults? Maybe these are the adults and they are just doubley pygmy sunfish. Can anybody give me an estimate on growth rates for these guys?
The creek is clear (as the name implies), spring fed, low gradient, sandy, and perennial. We did have a very wet summer last year (flooding all over the state), and maybe they are still recolonizing the very fragmented habitat that is available there. Today, out of the 5 or so patches we got them out of, kept, and preserved 1.5 months ago, I only caught 1. Downstream, I was catching them two or three at a time in untouched patches of emergent veg. They must be super slow recolonizers, especially given the samll amount of habitat at their disposal at this creek.
Anyway, what does anyone know about size at maturity etc. with these guys? I'm tossing around side projects to do with this population in my head, but want to hold off if these are all immature fish I'm catching.
E. Zonatum Size
Started by
Guest_rjmtx_*
, Oct 06 2008 02:10 PM
10 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 06 October 2008 - 03:28 PM
Three inches? I've never seen a pygmy anywhere near that big. At least in west Tennessee, males are usually an inch or less, females a bit bigger.
#3
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Posted 06 October 2008 - 04:31 PM
I don't know where I got three inches from... I went back and looked around, and found 4.5-5cm at the upper end. Still, that's about 2", which is much larger than the ones I've seen. I'm just curious if <1" is pretty much the norm across their range.
#4
Guest_keepnatives_*
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Posted 06 October 2008 - 06:43 PM
I've caught them a number of times from Arkansas, South Carolina and recently at the Texas NANFA conference I've found adults up to 1.75 inches though not in Texas those were about half an inch which I assume are young.I don't know where I got three inches from... I went back and looked around, and found 4.5-5cm at the upper end. Still, that's about 2", which is much larger than the ones I've seen. I'm just curious if <1" is pretty much the norm across their range.
#5
Guest_dsmith73_*
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Posted 07 October 2008 - 07:57 AM
In SC, they rarely get much more that 1.5 inches. A friend from AL once brought some to me that were enormous, close to 2.5 inches, so there is some variability.
#6
Guest_nativeplanter_*
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Posted 07 October 2008 - 11:30 AM
In SC, they rarely get much more that 1.5 inches. A friend from AL once brought some to me that were enormous, close to 2.5 inches, so there is some variability.
Holy Cow! I would have liked to see those! Did they look odd? I mean, the normal ones are sort of small-and-squishy-looking, with their fat little pinkish bellies. I'm having a hard time imagining that on a 2.5-inch specimen!
#7
Guest_dsmith73_*
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Posted 10 October 2008 - 08:57 PM
Holy Cow! I would have liked to see those! Did they look odd? I mean, the normal ones are sort of small-and-squishy-looking, with their fat little pinkish bellies. I'm having a hard time imagining that on a 2.5-inch specimen!
They cam from Charles R. Get him to send you some. THey were very odd indeed.
#8
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Posted 11 October 2008 - 10:59 AM
According to the Freshwater Fishes of Texas, they get up to 1.7 in there. The book was published last year and is quite a handy reference for the state. By the way, if you missed the convention you missed 2 of the authors giving the keynote speech at the banquet. Very informative and entertaining.
#9
Guest_rjmtx_*
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Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:24 AM
I tried to make the convention this year, but I had passes to a music festival and had to make a choice... Anyway, Dr. Bonner's my advisor, and I constantly mulling ideas over with him and Chad about Texas fishes. Truth is, we don't know a whole lot about Elassoma which is compounded by the fact that we get them on the very edge of a huge range down in the lower Brazos. From what I gathered, in the state they might get bigger as you go east, but might have to put that and some other questions I have about them on the backburner while I try to find time and money.
Man, if you thought the speech was informative and entertaining, you should spen 60+ hours a week around them... It's mind blowing.
It looks like I have two solid pairs out of the fish I brought home, but there are so many plants that I never see all of them at once. I'll grow them out for as long as they stick around with weekly water changes and see just how big they grow just for kicks. I'm not sure, but it seem like they mgiht bet the biggest in the heart of their range, but I wonder if it's not just environmental factors.
Man, if you thought the speech was informative and entertaining, you should spen 60+ hours a week around them... It's mind blowing.
It looks like I have two solid pairs out of the fish I brought home, but there are so many plants that I never see all of them at once. I'll grow them out for as long as they stick around with weekly water changes and see just how big they grow just for kicks. I'm not sure, but it seem like they mgiht bet the biggest in the heart of their range, but I wonder if it's not just environmental factors.
#10
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:59 PM
I tried to make the convention this year, but I had passes to a music festival and had to make a choice... Anyway, Dr. Bonner's my advisor, and I constantly mulling ideas over with him and Chad about Texas fishes. Truth is, we don't know a whole lot about Elassoma which is compounded by the fact that we get them on the very edge of a huge range down in the lower Brazos. From what I gathered, in the state they might get bigger as you go east, but might have to put that and some other questions I have about them on the backburner while I try to find time and money.
Man, if you thought the speech was informative and entertaining, you should spen 60+ hours a week around them... It's mind blowing.
It looks like I have two solid pairs out of the fish I brought home, but there are so many plants that I never see all of them at once. I'll grow them out for as long as they stick around with weekly water changes and see just how big they grow just for kicks. I'm not sure, but it seem like they mgiht bet the biggest in the heart of their range, but I wonder if it's not just environmental factors.
There were Elassoma found at a couple of sites during the convention... including right there in Lake Athens...
And I for one would love to spend some more time Dr. Bonner... he was very impressed with some of the ideas that he discussed as he was presenting during the banquet.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#11
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Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:03 PM
There were Elassoma found at a couple of sites during the convention...
Yeah, but Lake Athens is three river basins over from the one I've been working, and they get much more abundant as you move east. We've been doing a survey of the Lower Brazos tributaries from Waco almost to the coast, and have only found them in one site after two rounds of sampling about 40 sites. The Brazos is the westernmost basin for a lot of species that range throughout the south, so it's interesting to compare populations out there to more stable source populations in the heart of the range.
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