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BoxElder

Started by Guest_Bwood_* , Oct 18 2008 01:48 PM

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15 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Bwood_*

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 01:48 PM

I recently set up my 35 at my work in the back office. During the winter we get infested with "Boxelder bugs" they are black with orange markings. Every morning i fish about 20 out that had drowned overnight. The tank is still cycling and i have not put any fish in other than guppies which will later be used for feeders. My concern is when the tank gets stocked with whatever we decide on are these bugs harmful to the fish? Iv done whatever reserch i can and nothing says anything about them being toxic. Just some concern iv having. I understand this might be the wrong place for such a question but if anyone has info or a place to redirect my problem please let me know

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#2 Guest_scottefontay_*

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 02:35 PM

No, you came to the right place. The combined knowledge of the NANFA forum members is vast. Specific to your problem, I cannot answer your question of the bugs toxicity definitively, however, they are infact true bugs (hemiptera) and are in the same general group as those commonly known as "stink bugs". Stinkbugs smell and are also toxic/unpalatable to most animals. These particualr bugs may be orange as a warning that they are toxic or orange in the "hopes" that they will be seen as toxic. (which were also hemiptera).

These can also be easily confused with milkweed bugs, as they share very similar markings. These are toxic as their main food source is milk weed, same as monarch butterfly caterpillars (hence the monarchs toxicity). It is possible that, as stated above, the box elder beetles (which may not be toxic) are mimicing the milkweed beetles (which are toxic).

Either way, I would advise a screened cover to keep them out of the tank. I have had bad experience with orange and red beetles being deadly to some of the larger aquatic predatory insects I have kept. Hope that helps.

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#3 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 05:14 PM

I believe Scott has hit it. I doubt boxelder bugs are toxic- most bugs are only as toxic as their food plants, and boxelders are not known for toxicity- but no sense taking chances. In any case the excess nitrogen input can't be too good for the tank. Get a close-fitting top and you should be set.

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#4 Guest_scottefontay_*

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 05:59 PM

yeah, always remember that there is a reason that we humans have chosen red, orange and yellow as our warning colors....its amazing that with all of our technological advances that some things are still hard-wired our psyche...for a reason ](*,)

( I love that emoticon!!)

Edited by scottefontay, 18 October 2008 - 06:02 PM.

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#5 Guest_bullhead_*

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 07:49 PM

BE bugs are not orange, they are primarily dark gray/black. The orange markings are very faint. The coloration is much more "blend in" than "stand out". (The young of these bugs are pretty bright red, however.) If edible, these would be a great food for pond fish because of the sheer quantity of them. I can fill buckets if I wanted to. I have never heard of using them as bait which might indicate their unpalatability.

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#6 Guest_scottefontay_*

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 08:45 PM

There is a very large variation on EVERYTHING ranging from WISCONSIN to MERRYLAND. Insect species in your backyard are not those elsewhere. (p.s. nothing against the line state)

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#7 Guest_camber1981_*

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 09:11 AM

If it helps any, I know they stink something awful when you vacuum them up

& (worse than those darned asian beetles, if it tells you anything) so chances are, they probably taste as bad as they smell. I've also noticed funnel web spiders around here, which would eat pretty much anything that falls in their web, refuse to touch box elders, no matter what..... that screams unpalatable at the very least to me....

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#8 Guest_Bwood_*

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 07:13 PM

Well thanks for the help. While it would be awesome to put these infesting bugs to good use im still afraid to put predatory fish in there. If the fish does not like the bug that would be way better than it killing the fish. Even with the cover on it the bugs will still get in through the tinniest crack probably by the waterfall filter

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#9 Guest_smilingfrog_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 03:12 AM

Well thanks for the help. While it would be awesome to put these infesting bugs to good use im still afraid to put predatory fish in there. If the fish does not like the bug that would be way better than it killing the fish. Even with the cover on it the bugs will still get in through the tinniest crack probably by the waterfall filter

My only direct experience with fish eating these insects is that I've had them end up in my tanks, and I assume the fish ate them, as I would find their wing covers on the bottom of the tank and no sign of the rest of the little corpse. Didn't seem to hurt any of the fish, of course it was a only an occasional meal, not 20 a day.
A person I met at a NANFA / Minnesota Aquarium Society collecting trip last spring however, told me that he does feed them to his sunfish during the winter. He said he likes to give them live food but doesn't like to buy it so in the warmer weather months he gets worms, crickets, flies, etc..., but in the winter all he can find are the boxelder bugs that get in his house. He did say that they don't seem to like the boxelder bugs as much as other live foods, but do eat them.
Personally, I wouldn't purposefully feed them to my fish unless I knew they were safe, but I also wouldn't let the fact that they get into my tank, keep me from getting the fish I wanted. I doubt they are toxic enough to do any real damage to your fish, but will leave it to an entomologist to say for sure. I would suggest covering your tank if it isn't already covered. Like you said they will still find their way in, but maybe not quite as many.

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#10 Guest_Bwood_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 09:36 AM

elder.jpg 157.36KB 0 downloads

elder2.jpg 138.49KB 2 downloads

these things have become so bad the top picture is what i found this morning between the filter and the tank. The bottom one is one of these annoying beatles. Forgive my pictures im known for having horrible pictures. I have a feeling im going to be stuck with this all winter

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#11 Guest_scottefontay_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 10:19 AM

I wonder if you could find some sort of pheromone trap, similar to the ones for japanese beetles?

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#12 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 11:10 AM

A little bit of a tangent but kinda on topic also...I don't know if anyone else gets these nearby, but ailanthus webworms are something to watch out for. The first pickerel I ever collected was an inch long and I was raising him on live insects and worms. When I found worms hard to find, I grabbed some relatively drab looking caterpillars and fed him one. Later that day he was dead. Come to find out that these caterpillars and moths are toxic.

Drab, nonpoisonous-looking larvae
Posted Image

Conspicuous, obviously toxic adult...wish I had known what they turned into!
Posted Image

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#13 Guest_bullhead_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 10:30 PM

As another aside, box elder bugs are easy to kill. Just spray them with a weak soapy solution and they die pretty quickly. I use dishwashing soap with a hose sprayer. Don't know if it terribly effective on the grand scale, but it does give some satisfaction. (Do this outdoors, of course.)

Edited by bullhead, 22 October 2008 - 10:31 PM.

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#14 Guest_smilingfrog_*

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 02:47 AM

As another aside, box elder bugs are easy to kill. Just spray them with a weak soapy solution and they die pretty quickly. I use dishwashing soap with a hose sprayer. Don't know if it terribly effective on the grand scale, but it does give some satisfaction. (Do this outdoors, of course.)

I think Bullhead has a good suggestion.
I was going to say that while I don't normally use pesticides, they do have their place and this may be one of them. However, I got to thinking that you might then wind up with boxelder bugs coated in pesticide finding their way into your aquarium, and many pesticides say right on the label that they are highly toxic to aquatic life. Kind of defeats the purpose. Spraying with soapy water will kill them. It may need to be repeated several times though, as it will only kill the ones you hit with the spray and more bugs are sure to find your house.
Good Luck.

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#15 Guest_critterguy_*

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:48 AM

You've got so many...why not do an experiment? Volunteer a sunfish or something.

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#16 Guest_Bwood_*

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 02:24 PM

You've got so many...why not do an experiment? Volunteer a sunfish or something.

If its for the sake of learning and science id have no problem trying. Problem is im not trying it on one of my sunfish and all 3 of my tanks are running id hate to get a fish and keep it in a bucket. What if it survives i have no room for another sunfish. ill leave it to somone else to do the experiment.