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mystery minnow


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#1 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 07:59 PM

We hit up the almost dried up Clear Creek (is that right, Josh?) in Madison County, near Richmond, KY. Central KY, not really in the cumberland drainage. Anyway, found several of these interesting minnows - long, and narrow. Thjs one is about 4" long, about as large as we found them. Any idea what it is?

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That was a fun little trip. Amongst many fish we found, I landed a rock bass that was in the 6-7" range. Wasn't expecting that, it was hiding in leaves.

#2 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 09:21 PM

With the big eye and stitched lateral line that descends, I'd guess your picture is of a telescope shiner, or more interestingly, the closely related popeye shiner.

#3 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 09:20 AM

We were actually in "Muddy Creek" in Madison County. Clear creek merges with Muddy creek right where we began netting (right at that one lane bridge we crossed). We went down stream muddy creek roughly 1 mile from the KY river.

John, that fish may be the 'Silver Shiner' - Notropis photogenis. The telescope or the popeye isn't listed in that area. If that is the silver shiner, well, I have another shiner in my tank that I don't know the ID of cause I thought it was the silver shiner.

I brought back another interesting minnow that is short and stubby, and really resembles a livebearer of some type, I'm about 99% sure it's a western mosquitofish. Also, I think I brought back a silverjaw minnow.

#4 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 07:49 AM

John,

What is the survival status of your shiners? Of the five of those I brought back, I've lost only one. The other four seems to be acclimating themselves slowly. I began to see signs of tail rot and I'm currently treating them for that. They mainly hang out around the top of the tank kicking about. One of the smaller shiners I brought to my office is a bit different. The top color, above the lateral line, is a bit greener, resembling the ID for an emerald shiner...but I'm unsure as of now.

I had some time to review my tank yesterday and I did in fact bring home a nice Silverjaw Minnow. He, unlike the others, is adjusting nicely. He swims around with my others seemingly enjoying himself.

I also wanted to tell you that I came home yesterday to find that "funny looking rainbow" perched on my tallest rock and found out I was right, it wasn't a rainbow at all. It is an orangethroat. I'm surprised that have netted that, because I've been to that stream multiple times. I guess it goes to show that if visiting the same streams, you never know what will turn up. Thanks for talking me into keeping that, I nearly threw it back.

#5 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:08 AM

Does the minnow have two black crescent shaped marks between the nostrils?

#6 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 10:48 AM

Like this!

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#7 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 11:30 AM

I'll check my larger ones when I get home, but from what I can tell, they do NOT. John, what do your's look like?

#8 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 03:21 PM

John, are yours still living. I came home today to find that both of those shiner were barely alive and died a short time later. The two at my office tank were still alive. I think I'll run back down there Friday afternoon and grab a few more of them and bring them right back...maybe they'll survive.

Here's some decent pics of them.

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Different Lighting

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#9 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 04:17 PM

Josh:

All of mine made it home alive, didn't lose any. They're all thriving, the big silver ones were wolfing down bloodworms an hour after they went in the tank. I'm trying to think what we might have done different, and all I can think of was the 5 gal buckets I used for transport. So you might want to upgrade the size of your transport.

We found two varieties, the long silver ones, plus a shorter one that's exhibiting a slender bluish band down it's side. It doesn't match those silver/blue minnows I found in the Red River, the ones that kept dying on the way home. Going to take one last trip down there to try for a few more. Maybe with the salt and the cooler ambient temps, more will survive the trip. That one darter you gave me, the blunt headed johnny-like one hid under a rock, so I haven't been able to get a good look at it.

Also, looks like I inadvertenly brought home three gambusia as well. So you can add them to the list of fish in that stream. I didn't notice until my daughter asked me where the guppies came from. Huh?

Hey, if you're going back down there, can you grab me an orangethroat or two? Now that I think about it, I must have tossed two or three of them back. Darn things look just like a rainbow, don't they? I believe we found all of those in that pool where I got that net full of stonerollers, the one with the tree fallen over.

One thing is for sure - collecting goes a lot better with two people than one.

--John

#10 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 07:30 PM

With the big eye and stitched lateral line that descends, I'd guess your picture is of a telescope shiner, or more interestingly, the closely related popeye shiner.


Now that I'm looking at it, it really really really looks like the popeye.

Here is my close-up

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and here is Uland's pic of a popeye

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Kentucky DFW doesn't show the popeye in this area, but just because they don't show it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

#11 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:26 PM

That's what I'm thinking, too. KYFish&Game shows one photo of a popeye, and the fins match what I have, though their fish is just a wee bit fatter. Perhaps it was better fed? Photo is on the species information page.

I checked the telescope shiner page, it's not that. Ventral fin is different, not extended like the one I have. Popeye does have that extension to the ventral fin.

They're beautiful shiners. Swim with an almost snakelike motion.

Edited by JohnO, 21 October 2008 - 08:31 PM.


#12 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:30 PM

They're beautiful shiners. Swim with an almost snakelike motion.


I wish I knew...mine died

#13 Guest_dsmith73_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 07:55 AM

I'm not convinced that's a popeye. Something just doesn't look right. Also, I know from personal experience that, though present in KY, they are not very abundant. We spent quite a few hours with a VERY large seine in several historical locations and only came up with a handful.

#14 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 09:23 AM

I agree with Dustin it is not a popeye shiner. If you had multiple dead fish, and took pictures of them, why didn't you snap pictures (exactly like how Nathan was showing) of the nostril area? You wanted an ID for an unknown fish and I asked because that could answer the question or further narrow down the possibilities.

#15 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 10:22 AM

The fish in question at first glance looks a lot like a popeye, especially the very large eyes. But the mouth is wrong compared to Uland's photo, which shows the jaw hinge starting fairly far back under the eye orbit; the mystery fish has a visibly smaller mouth from what I can tell. So...

#16 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 12:00 PM

I agree with Dustin it is not a popeye shiner. If you had multiple dead fish, and took pictures of them, why didn't you snap pictures (exactly like how Nathan was showing) of the nostril area? You wanted an ID for an unknown fish and I asked because that could answer the question or further narrow down the possibilities.


Well, I didn't think about it at the time, do you need a better explaination of my reasoning or is that good enough?

#17 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 03:35 PM

I think I've found a good ID on this one. I was doubting a popeye, because the examples I caught are much more slender than the popeye photos I've seen. And there's that business of the mouth extending to slightly past the eye.

However, while looking through Notropis, I came across one that seems to fit this perfectly, right down to the fins, the slender body, and the extended mouth. Notropis atherinodes, the emerald shiner.

And KDFWR lists them as being present in Madison County, along with a lot of other counties, apparently it's quite common in the central KY area.

A very beautiful shiner, even if I can't see any emerald color. Body looks a lot like a mountain brook silverside, a minnow I'm still trying to find and get home alive.

#18 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 04:48 PM

I think the fish in post #1 is not the same as subsequent fish.

I'd guess the first fish is N. rubellus by looking at the snout (or is it micropteryx there?) but atherinoides is always possible.

The second fish has eyes much too large for N. atherinoides and I happen to have a decent photo of atherinoides from KY I've posted below.
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I want the large eye fish to be N. boops but below I have a photo as well and don't think it's right.
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The last fish to look at would be N. telescopus below.
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I think I'd have to default to N. telescopus on that fish but it's the best guess I can offer.

#19 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 07:43 PM

What about N. photogenis that or N. rubellus or what ever they are in that area are the two I first thought of. I think you may be right Uland that those may be two different species, the original one a rubellus and the latter maybe photogenis?

#20 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 07:26 AM

What about N. photogenis that or N. rubellus or what ever they are in that area are the two I first thought of. I think you may be right Uland that those may be two different species, the original one a rubellus and the latter maybe photogenis?


I can't see N. rubellus, these fish do not show any signs of any redish color anywhere. I'm going back to the stream today, I'll see what photos I can come up with.




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