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Distribution of Duskytail Darter

Started by Guest_jblaylock_* , Nov 24 2008 09:11 AM

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16 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 09:11 AM

KDFWL lists the Duskytail Darter as being E/T and only in the Big South Fork of the Cumberland River in McCreary County.

However, does anyone know the possible reaches of this fish?

Here's the reason behind it. Two weeks ago I was collecting alone in the Rockcastle River and caught a large (3-4) unknown darter. I kept this darter and I was unsure what it was. I thought the only E/T species in the area was the Olive Darter. I called another source and got a descripton of the Olive and I confirmed this fish I had was NOT an olive. After looking at it for a while, I convinced myself it was a abnormal fantail. I even told John that I caught an odd looking fantail, unlike anyone I'd ever seen before.

Today, I was browsing some photos and came across some photos of the Duskytail Darter. I'm 95% sure that's what I caught. What stands out to me the most is the first dorsal fin. What I caught had that odd first dorsal identical to the Duskytail. I really need to get a decent camera to take with me.

I know that somebody will say that it wasn't a duskytail, but I really think it was.

#2 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 12:04 PM

It's definately not out of the question, although, what size stream were you in? If in the Rockcastle mainstem where you'd find olive darter, I'm going to think it's not. Ed Scott found the duskytails WAY the heck up a trib arm in the BSF.

In any case, I would report the locality to Matt Thomas. matt dot thomas at ky dot gov

Yeah it would be smart of every NANFAn who's been a good girl or boy to ask for Santa to put one of the $200-$300 waterproof cameras in their stocking

Todd

#3 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 12:32 PM

Does it look like this?

Attached Images

#4 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 01:25 PM

That first Dorsal is identical. I got a better look a the top/side of it when I had it.

Edited by jblaylock, 24 November 2008 - 01:26 PM.

#5 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 07:47 AM

I would like to make it 100% clear that I did NOT keep this fish. I did contain it while trying to get a positive ID on it, but released it back into the same area that it came from.

It did come from the main channel, coming from the east but it was found in a small riffle area where the water was nearly 1 foot deep. The riffle was deep, but not really fast flowing. This was the only one I found, and I actually found no other fantail in that area, and I don't think that John or I found any fantails at all while being down there several times (I know I didn't).

So it is possible to find one of these out side the area KY lists?

#6 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 10:43 AM

Does it look like this?

Matt, ALL Catonotus look like THAT when viewed from THAT angle and resolution.

Josh, it could be flabellare or virgatum, both of which, if you haven't noticed the egg mimics on either before, they're really going to jump out at you. I'm not saying it's not percnurum, but the chances that it's one of these two is far more likely (nor are any of the above abundant in those watersheds). SFAIK there's been a lot of people looking for them in the Rockcastle.

You did what was best tho... If you don't know, just put 'er back

You could contact Matt and let him know what you found at the specific locality, and if he sees fit, he'll have someone check it out.

Todd

#7 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:14 AM

KDFWR is an interesting list, but I'm finding that it's not necessarily complete.

Livingston quad doesn't list any orangethroats, yet it now appears that I've found at least two variations of e. spectabile there. I've heard from another source that there are several uncategorized orangethroat variations, all found in the Rockcastle area, and in the same type location where I found those - in small, spring fed tributaries but not in the larger streams.

#8 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:08 PM

in small, spring fed tributaries but not in the larger streams.

And that is exactly where you'll find all these endemics, which have only "recently" been elevated to species level. KDFWR may not have had time to catch their sampling up to the literature. Thus my skepticism that this was a duskytail (only in the tribs), unless there was an immediately adjacent 1st order stream coming in at that riffle where they needed to retreat into the mainstem. And thus, the reason I ain't sayin' it ain't so

Todd

#9 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 01:15 PM

And that is exactly where you'll find all these endemics, which have only "recently" been elevated to species level. KDFWR may not have had time to catch their sampling up to the literature. Thus my skepticism that this was a duskytail (only in the tribs), unless there was an immediately adjacent 1st order stream coming in at that riffle where they needed to retreat into the mainstem. And thus, the reason I ain't sayin' it ain't so

Todd

I'm not going to take a stand on this because I'm not sure. From the point that I collected it, there was a mid-sized tributary that flows into the river. And near that confluence, there's a small creek that feeds into that trib.

However, another attribute of this fish was the belly. I remember telling John that it's belly was an odd blackish/blue color. I told him I thought maybe it was pregnant or something because it's belly was an odd color, unlike anything I've seen before. But I thought it would be odd for it to be pregnant in the winter. It's belly wasn't buldging either.

Despite what it is, I think I'll contact somebody at KDFWR about the possibility.

#10 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 02:13 PM

And that is exactly where you'll find all these endemics, which have only "recently" been elevated to species level. KDFWR may not have had time to catch their sampling up to the literature. Thus my skepticism that this was a duskytail (only in the tribs), unless there was an immediately adjacent 1st order stream coming in at that riffle where they needed to retreat into the mainstem. And thus, the reason I ain't sayin' it ain't so

Todd

You're saying it's not likely because said mystery fish is percnurum because the collection point sounds like the mainstem of the Rockcastle and that is too large? I wouldn't necessarily consider them headwater endemics to the extreme like the barcheeks (e.g. virgatum, derivativum, basilare, barbouri, striatulum, smithi, and obeyense). I wish I had an electronic copy of Page, Hardman and Near 2003 since there is a great virgatum picture from Clear Creek, Rockcastle Co., KY.

#11 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 02:49 PM

You're saying it's not likely because said mystery fish is percnurum because...

I'm skeptical that he found a really rare fish in a marginal habitat to where I thought they were typically found. Just skeptical. Not cynical

Todd

#12 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 03:24 PM

Okay, that's what I thought. I agree about the rareness skepticism. I'm just not sure aboutcalling habitat skeptical too. What's left of its range, especially because it's so broad, isn't as "headwater" as when I think of the other headwater endemics. Where I've seen them and where I know there to be decent populations are also fairly nice sized streams (>20' wide). I guess I'm just splitting ecological hairs and haven't seen enough barcheek habitat.

#13 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:59 PM

Would weather matter? As right now KY is in a period of bad drought. Nearly all small headwater creeks are completely dried up and most mid-sized creeks/streams have no flow and are mostly pooled. Could it be possible that a 'headwater' fish moved downstream into a main channel?

I'm not going to argue that it was, because without a photo, I'm not 100% myself. But, I'm figuring out that is is 'possible'. I'm skeptical as well, but I guess that it is possible...though it's a longshot.

#14 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:11 PM

Yep, that's what I was getting at in post #8. It probably didn't read very well the way I said it.

Todd

#15 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 11:09 AM

I talked to Matt Thomas. He was very thankful that I called. He advised me that the Duskytail is NOT a headwater fish and it would be found in a mainstream, larger river. He said it nests under large flat rocks in mid-sized riffles of 1-3 feet. This is EXACTLY the kind of area I found it in. He took the location and said that the next time he was in that arear, he'd check it out.

#16 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 12:07 PM

Very good, I'm glad you talked to him. He's a great guy to know and is very receptive to input from NANFA type people, which is a great model going forward in conservation (I don't care for the "IF not 'permitee', THEN 'poacher'" model).

Sorry for the confusion with what I was saying. My main message was "talk to Matt T". I'm glad you didn't loose that point in my confusion about the microhabitat of this species, nor my choice of the word "skeptic" where "probability" might have read less harshly.

Todd

#17 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 10:01 AM

I did mention to him that I was referred to him by a member of NANFA. He was suprised and asked if I was a member...I told him no, but I associate with them on their forum.