15 replies to this topic

[benmor78]

I'm setting up a display tank at my father's veterinary hospital, and the photo threads here in the show and tell section have been a great resource while I'm brainstorming what I want to do.  I'm probably going to go with a portion of it planted with clover, wisteria, and vals, and the other portion mostly rocky.  Does anyone have any photos of a sort of half and half planted tank?

In terms of livestock, I'm wanting to go with with smaller lepomids (redspotted, longear, etc.), some plains topminnows, and orangethroat darters, with perhaps a madtom or two and some P. vigilax.  Anybody have any other suggestions for north Texas watersheds?

Reading some of the things that Nativeplanter and others have said about soil substrates, I'm thinking about going with that (instead of ecocomplete), but I was hoping that I could get some more discussion on soil substrates... disadvantages vs. prepared substrates, particularly.

[camber1981]

There are a couple of points I could think of in support of prepared substrates. 1 - no "mystery pollutants" you might find in native creek/river substrates, 2 - prepared substrates are usually made with a soft clay mix, to promote adhesion to plant roots and prevent clouding the water (remember this is a DISPLAY tank), and 3 - you won't have to worry about hitchhikers i.e. parasites, bacteria, parasite bearing snails, etc......

That being said, I personally am starting to like the look of creek bed substrate, maybe an inch or two under an inch of dark gravel (as occurs naturally in creeks near me), just so long as there's not too much silt mixed in. Plus, a lot of the aquatic bugs that are mixed in provide free meals for your fish. My darters LOVE the caddisfly and beetle larvae I find when I'm collecting scuds.  

[Michael Wolfe]

I think the benefits of a deeper natural soil substrate outway any of the disadvantages.  My limited experience has given me a couple of tanks that produce excellent plant growth and minimal algae.  I have been using dirt from the backyard (per something I read in Walsted's book) with a covering of a little sand in some cases and then a little natural gravel.

[camber1981]

I've thought of using the same, but I've heard that most of the nutrients leach out of the soil and end up in the water column instead. I haven't really read into it a whole lot, admittedly.

[benmor78]

With a soil substrate, does that eliminate the need to dose with liquid fertilizers?  And what about the possibility of anaerobic areas?

[Newt]

Following advice from Laura (nativeplanter), I used a healthy layer of leaves (30 gallons, slightly compressed) as well as soil beneath the gravel in my 300.  This should result in a slow release of nutrients.  My vals and hornwort grow quite well in the tank.  I did have some clouding issues for several days after filling the tank; adding polyester quilt batting to the filter cleared this up.

My tank was initially planted the way you describe, with plants on one side and hardscape only on the other.  The vals quickly began colonizing the open areas of the tank.  If you want to maintain your aquascape you'll need to do some pruning.

I haven't needed to use fertilizers yet, but eventually I will.  The only new nutrients entering the tank are whatever's in your fish food and your water, so you're bound to run short of certain elements eventually.  I've heard that the slow-release sticks used for houseplants are good; you can just jam a half-stick into the substrate beside each major stem.

Why not go with native plants as well as fish?  There are a ton of native plant species that do well in tanks, including many of the standard aquarium plants.

[benmor78]

Newt, on Nov 29 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

Why not go with native plants as well as fish?  There are a ton of native plant species that do well in tanks, including many of the standard aquarium plants.

Mostly because I don't know a whole lot about plants.  I wanted a "groundcover" foreground plant, and liked the way clover looked.  I didn't know if it was native or not.  As for the vals and wisteria, I figured they were fast growers and would acclimate quickly.  I just don't know very much about plants, native or otherwise.  I'm open to suggestions.

[Newt]

The following NA native plants are at least occasionally available in pet stores:

Bacopa caroliniana (Bacopa)
Cabomba caroliniana (Green Cabomba)
Ceratophyllum demersum (Hornwort)
Ceratopteris thalictroides (Water Sprite)
Didiplis diandra (Blood Stargrass)
Echinodorus tenellus (Pygmy Chain Sword)
Eleocharis acicularis (Dwarf Hairgrass)
Fissidens fontanus (Moss)
Hydrocotyle verticillata (Whorled Pennywort)
Lemna minor (Duckweed)
Lobelia cardinalis (Cardinal Flower)
Ludwigia brevipes (Long Beach Ludwigia)
L. glandulosa (Cylindric-fruited Ludwigia)
L. palustris (Water Primrose)
L. repens (Red Ludwigia)
Mayaca fluviatilis (Stream Bogmoss)
Najas guadelupensis (Guppy Grass)
Nymphoides aquatica (Banana Plant)
Proserpinaca palustris (Mermaid Weed)
Riccia fluitans (Crystalwort)
Sagittaria subulata (Dwarf Sagittaria)
Saururus cernuus (Lizardtail)
Spirodela polyrrhiza (Giant Duckweed)
Vallisneria americana (Giant Vallisneria)

There are also native representatives of the following genera, exotic species of which are available in the trade:

Cardamine
Crinum
Eriocaulon
Heteranthera
Hottonia
Marsilea
Myriophyllum
Nymphaea
Phyllanthus
Ranunculus
Rotala
Wolffia

This list is in no way comprehensive, nor does it cover a number of aquarium-suitable native species that are not found in the trade.  That should give you a starting point, anyhow.  Of those, I'd say Dwarf Hairgrass, Pygmy Chain Sword, or Cardinal Flower would be suitable replacements for the European Water Clover, and Guppy Grass or Cabomba would make a good substitute for Water Wisteria.

I also would caution against keeping longears with those killifish and darters.  They may not be as piscivorus as greens or warmouth, but they can still take down such little fish.

1/8/2009 Edited to remove Pistia stratiotes (Water Lettuce).  This species is not native to North America and is highly invasive.  It is prohibited by some states.

[benmor78]

Newt, on Nov 29 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

I also would caution against keeping longears with those killifish and darters.  They may not be as piscivorus as greens or warmouth, but they can still take down such little fish.

I plan on rotating the lepomids out once they start getting large enough to be a threat to the smaller fish.

[benmor78]

Oh, and thanks for the list of plants.  I'll start doing some research.  You're an interesting chap, Newt, I'd buy you a beer if you were in my area.

[Michael Wolfe]

camber1981, on Nov 29 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

I've thought of using the same, but I've heard that most of the nutrients leach out of the soil and end up in the water column instead. I haven't really read into it a whole lot, admittedly.

camber1981, on Nov 29 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

With a soil substrate, does that eliminate the need to dose with liquid fertilizers? And what about the possibility of anaerobic areas?

With a planted tank the plants will take up the nutrients, so you will not have too much in the way of nutrients in the water column... and regarding fertilizers, they are largely unneeded to grow healthy plants... its already in the substrate... and anaerobic areas are not of a concern based in part on the particle size of the soil vs old fashion aquarium gravel (but the explanation is long and is better understood by reading Walsted's book).

[brian1973]

I'm not trying to hijack here but I am setting up a 90G native planted tank,and I am looking at what substrates to use as well, excuse my novice ignorance but what is this book you all are refering to? I tried googling and it produced to many results for me to filter through.

P.S. Thanks newt for that list..I spent last weekend going thru different planted tank websites trying to find which common aquarium plants are native...probably a full day searching different sites and my list was not nearly as long as yours.

EDIT: I did some more searching..is this the correct book title? 'ECOLOGY of the PLANTED AQUARIUM - A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist'.

Edited by brian1973, 30 November 2008 - 02:27 PM.

[Michael Wolfe]

brian1973, on Nov 30 2008, 01:58 PM, said:

EDIT: I did some more searching..is this the correct book title? 'ECOLOGY of the PLANTED AQUARIUM - A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist'.

Yes, and I have apparently been spleeing her name wrong... should be... Diana Walstad

[nativeplanter]

I've been offline for a few days.  The advice given above about soil substrates is right on.  Once you cover the soil with gravel, the nutrients will tend to stay in the substrate, available to the plant roots, and will be limited in the water column (which helps control algae).  I have found that fertilizing was needed for heavy feeding plants after several months.  I just jam about 1/8 to 1/4 of a houseplant fertilizer stick under the substrate near the roots.  I don't use 1/2 stick like Newt does, but he has an enormous tank.  You will not need to "dose" with chemicals in the water column, unless you have floating plants that are starting to look peaked.

I do like putting leaves under the soil, as I think I get better growth that way.  I have noticed, however, in my unfiltered tanks that get little or no water changes, the water gets quite tannin stained.  However, these tanks are lightly stocked or have no fish at all.  I imagine some carbon would remove the tannins if I wanted.

Anaerobic pockets are not a problem unless you create a huge disturbance in the tank.  By that I mean really stirring things up.  Aquatic plants are quite well adapted to living in anaerobic sediments and will not be damaged by them.  If you are concerned that you might cause a great disturbance (say, by moving a plant with huge roots), you can dose the tank with hydrogen peroxide (the 3% stuff at the pharmacy) at a rate of 1 oz per 10 gallons to oxidize any hydrogen sulfide released.

[benmor78]

Much thanks to Newt and Nativeplanter for the advice on this setup.  I'd also like to thank everyone who's posted photos in the show and tell forum, because they're a big help.

Also thought I'd update with setup pics... I worked on the substrate and hardscape today.  I will be running 4 x 36 inch power compact fixtures, it should work out to about 400 total watts.  Filtration is a wet/dry filter, and I plan on putting two sponge filters in each back corner for additional filtration / current.  The background is going to be removed and replaced with a neutral background color, I was thinking a black or maybe mottled pattern, I'm not sure.

Bottom layer:
Leaves.  Lots of leaves.  I've never seen any walnut trees around here, but I collected them from a location that didn't have any pecan trees.


Second layer:
Topsoil from Lowes.  Wow, this stuff is cheap.  $7 for 200 lbs. vs. $40 for 150 lbs. of gravel.



Final layer and hardscape:
The gravel is a dark quartz gravel, about 1 mm or so grain size.  Driftwood siliconed to a ceramic plate (it's pretty bouyant), when buried in the substrate, it should be below the water level.  I plan on adding some more rocks to the hardscape on the right side, for more of a jumbled, littoral look, egg sized and larger to create "islands."

[nativeplanter]

Looks like a good start!

I have used pecan leaves in the past, when there were a few big pecan trees in our yard.  Worked very well.