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Carp x goldfish hybrid?

Started by Guest_Gambusia_* , Jan 21 2009 08:51 PM

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18 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:51 PM

TWRA website:

http://www.tnfish.or...llNegus_jpg.htm

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#2 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:02 PM

I believe that its hybrid between carp and goldfish.

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#3 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:06 PM

My cynical view is that goldfish are just carp selected for brighter colors, like Chihuahuas are just wolves selected for a suite of annoying traits. Both goldfish and Chihuahuas support Darwin's view that species are not immutable, or as he wrote, 'nuff said.

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#4 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:08 PM

It looks just like any common carp I have seen but I am not good at iding fish, especially exotics

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#5 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:18 PM

The meristics are different between common carp, including koi (Cyprinus carpio) and gibbel carp, including goldfish (Carassius auratus). Paraphrased from Fishes of Tennessee: Typical common carp have 32-41 lateral line scales and 15-23 dorsal fin soft rays. Typical goldfish have 25-31 lateral line scales and 15-18 dorsal fin soft rays. The fish in the photo is meristically within the goldfish range, but has barbels (lacking in goldfish) and a more carp-like body shape.

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#6 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:34 PM

Is there a great variation of carp scales?

I've seen some carp with virtually no scales

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#7 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:36 PM

Yeah, there are several mutations out there that cause carp to have no scales ("leather carp"); or only a few scales that are very large ("mirror carp"). The numbers listed above do not apply to those carp, of course, only to 'normal' carp.

Edited by Newt, 21 January 2009 - 09:38 PM.

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#8 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:37 PM

Which were probably Mirror/Israeli carp and not common carp. Knowing the region 4 biologists and the description Nate posted it seems like the identification they give is correct. What is in question?

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#9 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:44 PM

I just think it is a pure common carp

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#10 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:47 PM

Why?

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#11 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:57 PM

I'm not sure

Just looks like a regular old cyprinus carpio to me

But I will defer to the experts

Edited by Gambusia, 21 January 2009 - 09:58 PM.

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#12 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:00 PM

I'm not an expert, but the guys who wrote the book I quoted are. Meristics are usually pretty reliable.

Edited by Newt, 21 January 2009 - 10:00 PM.

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#13 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:08 PM

Well since there can be variation we may never know without killing the fish and do a genetic test

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#14 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:14 PM

There certainly can be variation, but variation has been very well studied in these species. The numbers given are based on examination of huge numbers of specimens. Merisitics are not infallible, but I see no reason to doubt the hybrid nature of these fish given that more than one meristic and non-meristic set points to their hybrid status, and that folks more experienced than you or I in fish ID have determined that these fish are hybrids.

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#15 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:01 PM

My cynical view is that goldfish are just carp selected for brighter colors, like Chihuahuas are just wolves selected for a suite of annoying traits. Both goldfish and Chihuahuas support Darwin's view that species are not immutable, or as he wrote, 'nuff said.

Goldfish are related to common carp but they are their own species (Cyprinus carpio). Goldfish (Carassius auratus) aren't even in the same genus as common carp. The various goldfish breeds are the result of selective breeding of Carassius carassius (Crucian carp) or at least that is what the literature says.

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#16 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:35 AM

Like I said, it's a cynical view without sharpshooting any species concepts, systematics or truth revealed through meristics.

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#17 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:45 AM

[quote]There certainly can be variation, but variation has been very well studied in these species. The numbers given are based on examination of huge numbers of specimens. Merisitics are not infallible, but I see no reason to doubt the hybrid nature of these fish given that more than one meristic and non-meristic set points to their hybrid status, and that folks more experienced than you or I in fish ID have determined that these fish are hybrids.[quote]

When dealing with hybrids between these two species, great care should be taken with using meristics. Many of the hybrids will not derived from the nominal wild types for which most of the meristics have been studied. The cultigens / breeds of both species can vary greatly in terms of meristics, body conformation and coloration, often more than the variation of the same considered typical with wild forms of same. I seriously doubt many fisheries biologist, no matter how qualified they are reported to be, will be up to speed on the variations within the fancy breeds in cultivation and how they will influence interspecies hybrids they give rise to.

A couple of the koi breeds without goldfish inputs do approximate the fish shown in the picture in terms of coloration and body conformation. Also even within the koi breeds, some have been selectively breed for unusual scale counts independently of the mirror and leather breeds of common carp bred for consumption.

Edited by centrarchid, 22 January 2009 - 10:47 AM.

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#18 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 01:40 PM

I will submit to wiser voices here, but I'm just not sure how much koi influence there is in Tennessee waters. Even mirror and leather carp are fairly uncommon here, at least in my experience; we've pretty much just got standard issue common carp. Now the goldfish population I'm sure is more diverse.