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Any herpers here know what sp salamander?

Started by Guest_birdpond_* , Mar 19 2009 09:28 PM

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19 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_birdpond_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 09:28 PM

Csalamanderweb.jpg 43.43KB 2 downloads

I didn't want to touch or disturb him so please forgive the photo quality.

salamander_with_bug_websize.jpg 43.74KB 3 downloads

salamander_closeupwebsize.jpg 56.53KB 1 downloads

I started this pond project last year and got stopped by winter. Empty plastic liner (about 85 gallons size) had filled with rainwater, snow, leaves and gunk over the winter. I had no idea anything would be living in it as it still gets into the 40s overnight. I was contemplating what needed to be done to resume the project and was looking into the stained water admiring some interesting swimming /diving insects when this guy swam by. Finally I put some rocks closer to the edge (in the water) and he eventually hauled out.

I snapped some shots as the sun went down.

Field guides inconclusive. Lots of these little guys look alike.

I live in Norcross GA.

Any ideas??

Thanks!

Edited by birdpond, 19 March 2009 - 09:30 PM.

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#2 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:07 PM

It is always a bit difficult to conclusively ID some of these Plethodon without examining them closely and in person. A lot of times you really have to look at the belly of these and it will narrow the species down. ground and back color is so variable from population to population that is can be really tough to tell if you have more than a few species in your locality.

So unfortunately I can't help much... I do want to say though that your photos of the little beast are awesome..

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#3 Guest_birdpond_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:14 PM

So unfortunately I can't help much... I do want to say though that your photos of the little beast are awesome..

Wow -- thank you very much!

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#4 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 19 March 2009 - 11:18 PM

Looking at "Amphibians and Reptiles of Georgia" Jensen, Camp, Gibbons and Elliot... and being from GA I know where Norcros is... I would say that it is either...

A Southern red-backed Salamader (Plethodon serratus) or one of the Slimy Salamaders from the Plethodon glutinosus complex (likely either Atlantic Coast Slimy P. chlorobryonis or the main P. glutinosus)

All three are listed as common or even abuntant in the areas that they are found.

...always helps to know where you are standing... helps narrow down what natually occurs... otherwaise like was mentioned, many of these guys look very similar.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#5 Guest_birdpond_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 11:39 PM

Looking at "Amphibians and Reptiles of Georgia" Jensen, Camp, Gibbons and Elliot... and being from GA I know where Norcros is... I would say that it is either...

A Southern red-backed Salamader (Plethodon serratus) or one of the Slimy Salamaders from the Plethodon glutinosus complex (likely either Atlantic Coast Slimy P. chlorobryonis or the main P. glutinosus)

All three are listed as common or even abuntant in the areas that they are found.

...always helps to know where you are standing... helps narrow down what natually occurs... otherwaise like was mentioned, many of these guys look very similar.

Thanks Michael,

At first I didn't think it was a Slimy because the ones I'd seen before didn't have the brick colored areas, but as I am researching more, I believe you are correct.

Appreciate your help!

(ps LOL now can we identify the little bug I just noticed on the leaf in front of him??)

Cathy

Edited by birdpond, 19 March 2009 - 11:43 PM.

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#6 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 12:57 AM

That's P. serratus. P. glutinosus complex species in your area are brown to black with white or brassy spots, never with any red, and have longer legs and broader head. One important character is the number of costal grooves (the indentations on the sides). These can be tricky to count, but if you assume there is one in the armpit and one in the groin it helps; only grooves between those two joints count. P. serratus usually have 18-21 grooves, P. glutinosus complex 15-17. Slimies are also larger as adults (5-8", versus 3-4" for P. serratus).

You can tell yours is an adult male by the projecting corners on the lip; these are the nasolabial glands, which are associated with detection of female pheremones. Your guy is the unstriped or "leadback" morph, albeit a very reddish one. There is also a striped or "redback" morph with a straight red, orange, or tan stripe from head to tail.

The bug is a globose springtail (Order Collembola: Family Sminthuridae).

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#7 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 03:26 AM

Sorry, I don't have any ID input, but I just have to say that those are some nice pictures! Thanks for sharing!

Brian

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#8 Guest_birdpond_*

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 07:29 AM

That's P. serratus. P. glutinosus complex species in your area are brown to black with white or brassy spots, never with any red, and have longer legs and broader head. One important character is the number of costal grooves (the indentations on the sides). These can be tricky to count, but if you assume there is one in the armpit and one in the groin it helps; only grooves between those two joints count. P. serratus usually have 18-21 grooves, P. glutinosus complex 15-17. Slimies are also larger as adults (5-8", versus 3-4" for P. serratus).

You can tell yours is an adult male by the projecting corners on the lip; these are the nasolabial glands, which are associated with detection of female pheremones. Your guy is the unstriped or "leadback" morph, albeit a very reddish one. There is also a striped or "redback" morph with a straight red, orange, or tan stripe from head to tail.

The bug is a globose springtail (Order Collembola: Family Sminthuridae).

Wow Nathan, thank you! I knew this was the right place to ask.

I'm going to continue the pond project very gingerly and landscape around it with these guys in mind. I hope he's an indication that amphibs are holding their own around here.

Is there is anything I should keep in mind to encourage/protect more herps like him? (I can't seem to do anything about the constant supply of stray or feral cats that always seem to show up, though, and I know they must take a terrible toll on the native wildlife.)

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#9 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 08:52 AM

A paintball gun works pretty good. Not fatal, but it definitely encourages them to move elsewhere.

Is there is anything I should keep in mind to encourage/protect more herps like him? (I can't seem to do anything about the constant supply of stray or feral cats that always seem to show up, though, and I know they must take a terrible toll on the native wildlife.)

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#10 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 11:06 AM

I did not chime in because I knew Nathan would know it, he got the insect too! The knowledge on this forum is so impressive. You could show Nathan a salamander foot and I bet he could ID it. :tongue:

Nice pictures, indeed!

Blake

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#11 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 02:55 PM

Ha! I wish I had those kind of ID skills. They say Cuvier could identify almost any vertebrate from a single bone.

Two main things you can do to encourage amphibians are: provide cover, in the form of plants, stones, logs, leaf litter, overturned flower pots, etc., and try to avoid using pesticides and other chemicals around the pond.

Plethodon are actually terrestrial, but do sometimes wander into the water. They're kind of like roaches, in that if you see one, there are plenty more you don't see. No doubt your pond will attract other amphibians, and probably some snakes as well.

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#12 Guest_birdpond_*

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 06:20 PM

Newt, thanks, that would be perfect. I don't see many snakes except those wonderful little DeKay's, but even if that's all that shows up I'll be happy!

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#13 Guest_joshuapope2001_*

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 08:56 AM

Great pics...... I too wondered what that insect was...... what camera are you using?

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#14 Guest_birdpond_*

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:06 AM

Thanks! I used a Nikon D90 and Nikkor VR 105mm F/2.8G lens, handheld, some w/fill flash. Just a touch of post processing (basically one-click auto-adjust).

Attached Files

bright_eyes.jpg 40.03KB 1 downloads
hauled_out_web.jpg 56.65KB 0 downloads
hauling_out_more_web.jpg 84.11KB 0 downloads
ID_Salamander_sideview_web.jpg 45.46KB 0 downloads
salamanderIDweb.jpg 56.37KB 1 downloads

Edited by birdpond, 21 March 2009 - 09:16 AM.

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#15 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 04:01 AM

Wow! Nice pics again, Cathy!

Brian

Brian J. Torreano - Owner
BTDarters
American Native Fish for
your aquarium...and more!
Web: http://www.btdarters.com
Email: bt@btdarters.com
Phone: (262) 268-7489

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#16 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 12:44 PM

Great pictures, I wish I had Plethodon salamanders in my back yard!

Blake

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#17 Guest_birdpond_*

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 01:32 PM

Thanks, hehe, and they're in my FRONT yard, so you can imagine what the neighbors must have thought, :???:

seeing a grown woman laying on her tummy in the mud aiming a camera at something no one else could see! :laugh:

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#18 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 01:49 PM

I hadn't even looked at the bug, but that's a good call for springtail. We're finding springtails as the most common insect inside the guts of telescope shiners taken from Estill Fork in the upper Paint Rock River system in 'bama. I'd have to assume that Plethodon salamanders like them, too. I have a healthy population of glutinosus in my back yard, which is somehow assuring.

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#19 Guest_Mysteryman_*

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 07:42 AM

Slimys are under every other log you flip over around here, so they're doing fine in my area. Ours are pure black & white without the red.
They should have called them Sticky Salamander instead of Slimy, though, if you ask me.

Every now and then I find an occasional Pseudotriton ruber. They're the reason I go around flipping over all those logs in the first place!

One salamander that I can never find is Ambystoma cingulatum, the Flatwoods Salamander. They're supposed to be here, but I've only seen one single specimen in some 20 years of looking for them, and it was dead. I've found more Coral Snakes than that, and they're hard to find themselves. Sheesh! Red Hill Salamanders are easier to find!

Edited by Mysteryman, 25 March 2009 - 07:45 AM.

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#20 Guest_andyavram_*

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:49 PM

Mysteryman,

Flatwoods Salamanders are federally Endangered and have some sort of listing in every state they occur in. They are unfortunately declining in nearly or all of their known localities. I beleive the strongest populations are in the Florida panhandle and even those aren't doing so hot. If you do find one it will be very noteworthy and something you should make the state aware of.

Andy