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Upper Greenfin Darter sampling


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#1 Guest_bpkeck_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 02:02 PM

Hey all,

I am very thankful for the NANFA conservation research grant you all awarded me for my research on Greenfin Darters, Nothonotus chlorobranchius, and thought I'd let you all know that I'll be getting a chunk of the sampling done in a few days. I'll be leaving from Knoxville on Sunday, March 29, on up to camp/sample on Beaverdam Cr., a South Fork Holston trib. Monday we'll be winding our way south through the mountains and pick up some Watauga tribs in TN (Stoney Cr. and Doe R.) and Nolichucky tribs in NC (N and S Toe R.), probably camping on the S Toe. Tuesday we'll stop at two French Broad tribs (Ivy Cr. and Big Laurel Cr) on our way back to Knoxville. Wednesday we'll spend a leisurely morning and early afternoon on the Little Pigeon just outside the GRSM park border.

If anyone would like to come with us or meet at one of the localities let me know. Monday may be fast paced, but the others should have more time to explore. I'll post updates on facebook during the trip, and on here when I get back.

I'm hoping for less rain, snow, and cold than my Feb. trip to northern AL.
IMG_0027.JPG

I'm hoping to do the southern part of the range and get pictures in mid to late May and will post that on here as well.

Ben

#2 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 02:13 PM

I wish I could come but unfortunately school calls. :(

Good luck and I look forward to seeing pictures!

Blake

#3 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 02:20 PM

That photo looks like a Boy Scout weekend from hell. Hopefully the regional rains starting tomorrow night pass by Sunday.

#4 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 06:18 PM

Can't wait to see some pictures Ben. My first( and only) time I collected greenfins was a great experience. That was about the time we sampled them and they looked great.

#5 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 06:46 PM

Good luck. Looking forward to vicariously enjoying your trip.
BTW, a small folding shovel, known to military types as a trenching tool, is an indispensable piece of camping equipment. Use it to make a trench around your tent to direct the water around and past your tent. Works like a charm.

What name do you go by on FB? [PM if you want to keep it private]

#6 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:08 PM

Ivy Creek is NICE. It looks like there's a ton of trash in it (I was sampling downstream of the trout segment) but it was crawling with greenfin and swannanoa darters. I caught one of the biggest swannanoa darters I've seen under the old side to a washing machine or something lol There's some less trashy area just upstream tho ;) Do you have a site there yet? PM me for the locality, it had great parking and easy access, I was there this same time of the year.

Todd

#7 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:44 PM

Why didn't you put the tents on that concrete pad?

#8 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 11:37 PM

Good luck, Ben! I look forward to hearing back how your outing went!

Brian

#9 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 07:18 PM

Hi, Ben. I would love to join. Although I have several things going on this weekend - including going to a wedding - I may be able to join up on Tuesday when you are a bit closer to Knoxville. I'm almost positive I can get work off. I will just have to see if everything pans out right. PM sent.
Cheers,
Will

#10 Guest_bpkeck_*

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 05:05 PM

I'm Benjamin P Keck on facebook; there's also a Southeastern Fishes Council group and some interesting fish people on there if you search. In that picture my tent is the left most, and didn't have any water intrusion from below. Unfortunately, after nine years the rain fly is only minimally effective and dripped all evening, so I slept in the truck. I bought a new tent as soon as I got back and will be using it this trip.

fundulus - I made it to Eagle scout and I have plenty of stories of waking up in puddles and now have a decent eye for picking a spot that will not retain water in a down pour.

gzeiger - I rarely use concrete pads, gravel are fine, but if there's going to be any wind I like to have it well staked down and that night there were tornado warnings. It was one of the more interesting nights of camping in recent years for me.

Should be a fun trip, even with the potential rain.

Ben

#11 Guest_bpkeck_*

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 11:07 AM

I'll have to wait to get home before I can post some locality pictures, no fishy pics this time. We had mixed success, mostly because it was just two of us and that makes it hard to sample N. chlorobranchius habitat effectively. We found them in the North and South Toe Rivers in NC along with some really nice Gilt Darters, Percina evides, and Fatlips Minnows, Phenacobius crassilabrum. The Toe Rivers are some really gorgeous streams and worth the trip themselves. We didn't get any Greenfins from the Doe River, a Watauga trib., but we did get a seine haul of 200+ Saffron Shiners, Notropis rubricroceus, and that was impressive even if they weren't colored up yet. We got Greenfins from Ivy Creek, French Broad trib., although all the fish in this creek had massive black spot infestations; the Fantail Darters, Etheostoma flabellare, had so much blackspot that there was virtually no surface area of the fish not covered. We also found out that National Forest campgrounds are not open yet, and that the Blue Ridge Parkway is closed in between the South Toe and Asheville. Despite those two snags the trip went well, with great weather on Monday and some great fish. Ben

#12 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 11:31 AM

Ben, at Ivy Creek, were you getting them from where all the dumping occurred? Or did you find them like that upstream of the bridge locality I gave you? I saw similar effects down in the "urbanite" stream bank reinforcement, but did not see it in the population just upstream of the bridge. Swannona darters at the lower end were pretty bad too.

Todd

#13 Guest_fritz_*

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 01:36 PM

I love the South Toe. Great for snorkeling on blotchside logperch.

Did you get any stonecats in Ivy Creek?

#14 Guest_bpkeck_*

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 05:18 PM

Todd - We were at the first crossing of the road you pointed out; didn't see much trash in the stream and no noticable riprap, etc. The Swannanoa were moderately affected and the Greenfins the least, but the Fantails were just tubes of trematodes. Most of the minnows were okay, except a few of the Stonerollers and Hybopsis.

Fritz - We got one 5" Stonecat.

#15 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 07:21 PM

Ben, you would have had to go across the bridge and downstream. It's pretty fugly down about 200 meters and on. I was wondering if someone dumped something awful.

Did you get any longnose dace there? They weren't as thick there as we saw them in the Davidson and Mills, but they were just as enormous.

http://gallery.nanfa...sedace.jpg.html (I had no idea! lol)

And yeah, all those lipstick lips are pretty awesome when you lift up a couple hundred of them lol.

Fritz, is there something interesting about the stonecat in Ivy Creek? I got a couple bigguns in there too, according to my field notes. Listed as "supersize!" :)

Those "fantails" up thataway look funny too. But I won't even bother to get into that whole phylogenetic nightmare.

Can't wait to get back up there again. Been pushing the 'rents into a family vacation there. I think I have my Dad on the line. He likes the Smokies, but he's bored with Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. I tried to nudge toward Townsend, but he thinks that's too far to day trip to get over to Le Conte (his fave hike - and no, it's very not son like father :) ). I would totally settle for Asheville, Brevard or Hendersonville.

Todd

#16 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 07:58 PM

Can't wait to get back up there again. Been pushing the 'rents into a family vacation there. I think I have my Dad on the line. He likes the Smokies, but he's bored with Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. I tried to nudge toward Townsend, but he thinks that's too far to day trip to get over to Le Conte (his fave hike - and no, it's very not son like father :) ). I would totally settle for Asheville, Brevard or Hendersonville.

Todd


My wife and I are going there in May for an extended weekend. I collected in the Little Pigeon last August, found plenty Swannanoa and TN Snubnose. I collected right in Pigeon Forge and right outside the national park before you get to Gatlinburg. Are there any other close streams that would be work looking into?

#17 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 09:09 PM

My wife and I are going there in May for an extended weekend. I collected in the Little Pigeon last August, found plenty Swannanoa and TN Snubnose. I collected right in Pigeon Forge and right outside the national park before you get to Gatlinburg. Are there any other close streams that would be work looking into?


Good places. There's a little park back behind Kroger and Auto Zone that's a little trib of the Pigeon. I saw all the small stream darters there, and found most of the shiners including plenty of saffrons.

Yeah there is... Get your snorkel and mask out and hit the Little River at Townsend at any of the accesses. You can see around 20 species of darters. Makes a nice day trip adding on a walk at Cades Cove and hike out to Abrams Falls, getting all ready to jump in that chilly water!

Todd

#18 Guest_bpkeck_*

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:28 AM

I saw that road going down stream, but we were pretty content with what we got at the bridge so we didn't venture down. We did get a few Rhinichthys, but they were normal size. I was with Phillip Hollingsworth and he recalled Charlie Saylor saying that blackspot seemed to get worse in dry years, and I'd say our past few years qualify. The sediment looked good, clean with lots of interstitial space; even the pool under the bridge had nice clean sand beds.

It's really pretty up there and I can't wait to get back in May and hopefully some snorkeling.

#19 Guest_fritz_*

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:35 AM

Fritz, is there something interesting about the stonecat in Ivy Creek? I got a couple bigguns in there too, according to my field notes. Listed as "supersize!" :)


The stonecats in the upper TN drainage are probably something new - I forget who was working on that question. I started to get involved but can't seem to finish what I already have so backed off. Charlie Saylor was the one who initially got me excited about the ones in Little T. I've also collected a few in Cane River (Nolichucky) and Ivy Creek.

#20 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:38 AM

Brrrrrrr. Hope you got a 7 mm or a two piece Ben. May is still pretty chilly that way, low mid 60's.

You can see alot of things snorkeling in the Little River, including people riding intertubes over lowhead dams like it's a waterslide. 20 species of darters!? No way! I maxed out at 12 or 13 multiple times e-fishing and snorkeling and there were only two other species possible I didn't come across, P. sciera and E. cinerum.



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