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Sunfish from a Natural Lake in NW Ohio


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Poll: Sunfish sp. (27 member(s) have cast votes)

What Sunfish sp. do you think this is? (Just thought I'd make a poll out of it)

  1. Voted Pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus) (12 votes [40.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  2. Voted Hybrid Sunfish (Lepomis gibbosus x Lepomis macrochirus) (14 votes [46.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.67%

  3. Hybrid Sunfish (Lepomis gibbosus x Lepomis cyanellus) (3 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  4. Other (Lepomis sp. x Lepomis sp.) (1 votes [3.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

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#1 Guest_NateTessler13_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 10:26 AM

Hello,
I was recently in Northwestern Ohio sampling a natural lake (one of the few in Ohio) with some forum members (farmertodd, schambers, among others). Among our catch in the new bag seine were some Sunfish sp. We pulled out a bigger Pumpkinseed for photos. After putting him in the photo tank and taking pictures, we started wondering whether or not this was a pure-bred at all. Looks to me like it's 90% a Pumpkinseed and 10% Green Sunfish or Bluegill. This natural lake has a population of Pumpkinseed, Bluegill, and presumably Green Sunfish.

Here's a shot of him:
Posted Image
In that first shot there, the mouth seems too big...more becoming of a hybrid. Plus, the tell-tale red patch on the opercular flap wasn't visible.

Another shot of the same fish:
Posted Image
This shot makes him look more like a pure-bred Pumpkinseed. What do you guys think?

#2 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:18 AM

Looks like a stright up pumpkinseed to me.

#3 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:13 PM

Great find Nate. I have no experience with pumpkinseeds, my opinion may not be valid but that ear margin screams hybrid. The vertical mottling seems mighty close to not have bluegill in it.

#4 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:42 PM

Pumpkinseed.

#5 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:59 PM

My gut feeling would be to call it a pumpkingill, but I'm not going to try to back it up. If it's pure pumpkinseed its certainly different than what I normally get in these parts.

#6 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 04:32 PM

Looks like a cross between bluegill and pumpkinseed. I have some known F1 pumpkinseed x bluegill to harvest from pond shortly. If memory serves I will photograph and upload for comparison.

#7 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 05:14 PM

I think the mouth looks fine but agree the purplish mottling makes me suspect some bluegill influence.

#8 Guest_panfisherteen_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 06:13 PM

up here the only sunfish i catch (other than bass and rock bass) are p-seeds, and that doesnt look quite like one, id def. go with a hybrid, but i could be wrong

#9 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 06:39 PM

The fish looks very much like p-seeds from central New England, esp. SE Massachusetts in ponds like Maquan in Hanson and Furnace in Pembroke. Like most widespread species you'd expect a fair amount of population variability. P-seeds probably don't have as much as longears, but with their range and history of small populations recolonizing formerly glaciated terrain there's been plenty of time and opportunity for variation to develop.

#10 Guest_EdBihary_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:01 PM

They all have common ancestry anyway, and have many features in common. They are all Lepomis, after all. Just the same, I would never accuse this fish of being anything but a pumpkinseed.

#11 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:02 PM

If that were the case, you would expect that variation to be expressed with greater frequency across an entire subpopulation than it was. This fish was completely different from every other pumpkinseed in the lake, all of which else were extremely similar.

I wouldn't go to the extent of doing percentages... I think that promotes some of the skepticism.

But I have no doubt in my mind that this fish is a cross. Esp when looking at the operculum. I can totally buy gibbosus x macrochirus.

Nate did you get a good pic of one of the larger male pumpkinseeds and/or bluegill? Or were holding out to allow this to blow fallow, and then post it? :)

Todd

#12 Guest_NateTessler13_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 09:08 PM

Looks like a cross between bluegill and pumpkinseed. I have some known F1 pumpkinseed x bluegill to harvest from pond shortly. If memory serves I will photograph and upload for comparison.


Nice, I'd like to see what those fish look like.


I think the mouth looks fine but agree the purplish mottling makes me suspect some bluegill influence.


Yeah. When purple gets tossed in, I instantly start leaning towards hybrid. It may be a fault in my ID tendencies, but it's usually right.


The fish looks very much like p-seeds from central New England, esp. SE Massachusetts in ponds like Maquan in Hanson and Furnace in Pembroke. Like most widespread species you'd expect a fair amount of population variability. P-seeds probably don't have as much as longears, but with their range and history of small populations recolonizing formerly glaciated terrain there's been plenty of time and opportunity for variation to develop.


Hmm...I buy that explanation, could be a function of variation. I'm just trying to categorize the photo, and I was thinking of using it for something at Bass Pro, but I want to be more confident it is a full-blown Pumpkinseed.

If that were the case, you would expect that variation to be expressed with greater frequency across an entire subpopulation than it was. This fish was completely different from every other pumpkinseed in the lake, all of which else were extremely similar.

I wouldn't go to the extent of doing percentages... I think that promotes some of the skepticism.

But I have no doubt in my mind that this fish is a cross. Esp when looking at the operculum. I can totally buy gibbosus x macrochirus.

Nate did you get a good pic of one of the larger male pumpkinseeds and/or bluegill? Or were holding out to allow this to blow fallow, and then post it? :)

Todd


Todd, I didn't take any photos of any other Pumpkinseed looking fish. I didn't take the time to explore them either. I picked through the net, saw a larger sized Lepomis and threw it in the bucket to be photo'ed. I should stay away from the percentages, you're right...but it just looks so darn close to the Pumpkinseed that I'm familiar with...

#13 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:02 PM

Absolutely no way that is a pure Pumpkinseed! There are a tun of Lepomis Hybrids in Ohio and it amazes me people are so skeptical of this. Here is a link for a map of documented Lepomis hybrids in Ohio... http://oh.water.usgs...rid_sunfish.pdf

I think that particular fish is a pumpkinseed x bluegill cross of some sort. I was fishing in Long Lake in NE Ohio 2 weekends ago and caught the following 3 hybrids...

This one is a similar cross to Nate's Nettle Lake fish appears to be a bluegill x pumpkinseed cross...
Attached File  Bluegill_x_pumpkinseed_from_long_lake_May_2009_by_JZ.jpg   28.79KB   1 downloads

This one looks like it has quite a bit of redear in it but there is also some bluegill, notice the dark areas at the rear part of the dorsal and anal fins...
Attached File  Bluegill_x_Redear_from_long_lake_May_2009_by_JZ.jpg   24.58KB   1 downloads

Last here is one you don't find naturally too often, notice the very large mouth. This guy looks to be a warmouth x bluegill hybrid. I actually kept this guy, anyone want a fin clip to proove me correct?
Attached File  Bluegill_x_warmouth_from_Long_Lake_May_2009_by_JZ.jpg   26.91KB   3 downloads

And just so you can all see the difference here are two photos of actual pumpkinseeds...
Attached File  male_pumpkinseed1_north_reservoir_portage_lakes_may_06_by_JZ.jpg   32.8KB   1 downloads
Attached File  Male_Pumpkinseed_from_the_Pickerel_River_ON_06_12_07_by_BZ.jpg   43.33KB   1 downloads

#14 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 09:11 AM

Well shoot. I'll check with the others to see if they took a pic of the p-seed. I recall holding one for photos.

Yeah, I don't understand the skepticism either Brian. Esp after seeing Centrarchid's pictures of intentional crosses? That's pretty amazing to me.

Todd

#15 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:07 AM

I voted awhile ago, looks like a pumpkingill to me. I agree, no way a pure pseed. Great hybrid photos Brian, I love the warmouth x bluegill cross, an interesting fish for sure.

Blake

#16 Guest_NateTessler13_*

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 06:33 PM

Brian, is your link broken? Also, your Bluegill x Redear Sunfish looks like you just cropped off the head of a Bluegill and threw a Redear head on there :)

Edited by NateTessler13, 08 May 2009 - 06:34 PM.


#17 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 08:04 PM

Sorry about that the link should be fixed now.

#18 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 12:10 AM

Green Sunfish.

#19 Guest_choupique_*

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 09:18 AM

Hmmm. Maybe it is some exotic cichlid and not a hybrid. :rolleyes:




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