Battling Ich

A few weeks ago I brought home a couple redsided dace and a common shiner. I was keeping them quarantined in a 5 gallon bucket in the basement, but after about a week and a half got impatient and decided to go ahead and add them to my 75 gallon aquarium. The inhabitants they joined were: 3 rainbow darters, 1 fantail darter, 1 stonecat, 3 southern redbellied dace, 1 spotfin shiner, 1 emerald shiner, 1 blacknosed dace, and 2 longnosed dace. They were replacing a couple of spotfins, a banded killifish, and a bluntnosed minnow that had died over the past year (all fish that had been in the aquarium for at least 3 years and were likely getting old). Anyway about a week after adding the 3 I noticed one of the redsided dace had ich. I filled a 5 gallon bucket and treated it with coppersafe and put the afflicted redside in, hoping I had got to it before the ich had a chance to spread to the rest of the aquarium. No such luck. Sunday I saw that 2 of my redbellied dace, the spotfin, both longnosed dace, and the emerald shiner were all infected to varying degrees. The stonecat did not appear to be infected, but was acting strange in that at all hours of the day it was actively swimming. Usually it stays hidden in the plants until night. None of the darters appeared to be infected. I decided to treat the whole aquarium and slowly over several hours added a dose of coppersafe for about 68 gallons, to compensate for the gravel, and the fact that the tank isn't filled all the way.
I have continued to be confused by the the stonecat. About an hour or so after having added approximately half the dose, I found it stuck to the filter and I thought it was a goner. I was half expecting it to die if I used this stuff anyway as although the label doesn't say anything about it, I seem to remember someone telling me that it could be harmful to scaleless fish. The label does say to remove invertebrates without hard exoskeletons and that it may harm some amphibians. Anyhow I nettted it off the filter and it began to flop around vigorously in the net. I kept it trapped in the net near the surface, and left it in the aquarium over night. The next morning it was still alive. I released it and it swam around apparently okay. Tuesday night I got home from work to find the stonecat doing well but my 2 favorite darters were dead. One of them a rainbow I have had for 4 years now and it was an adult when caught, the other a fantail, I had for 2 years. If just the rainbow had died, I would have figured he's old it's just a coincidence, but it seemed a bit suspicious that they both picked the same day to die, so I am guessing it had something to do with the medication. The 2 remaining rainbows though are doing fine for now. Tonight I got home and again thought the stonecat was dead. It was laying on it's side, gray, and appeared stiff. I got the net and then noticed it was still breathing. I scooped it up and put it into a 5 quart icecream bucket and it swam around as though nothing was wrong. I did notice that it does have a few ich spots on it now. The spotfin and the aflicted redsided dace both did die today, though the redside no longer showed any sign of the disease. The longnosed dace have likewise lost all their ich spots but both have very nasty looking wounds. I would guess they have been scratching but haven't seen them doing so. The blacknosed dace is frequently scratching but has no spots or wounds. The emerald shiner, and one of the redbellied dace seem mildly infected, another redbelly is heavily infected, and the 3rd redbelly dace, the remaining redside dace, and the common shiner do not appear to be infected. All are still exhibiting normal behaviors.
Judging by their looks and actions, I don't hold out much hope for the longnosed dace or the stonecat. Time will tell with the rest I suppose. I am just so angry with myself right now because I did know better than to take those fish out of quarantine so early and yet I did it anyway. All of this could have easily been avoided.

I definitely did not read your whole post b/c I am much too lazy .

When I kept tropical, I really liked loaches and had several gigtantic clowns for quite a few years. I remember reading a great ich article in TFH magazine about using temperature alone to treat it, since scaleless fish are difficult to treat using Malachite green, methylene blue, etc.

Basically by slowly raising the temperature of your tank, and by assuring that plenty of dissolved oxygen is still kept in the tank either by using power filter and lowering the water level (or airstone) most fish do just fine and the parasite can be eliminated. The temperature range (which should only be raised slowly) is between 87-90F for most strains of ich. I found that 88F worked just fine.

Keep it there for about 5 days, and slowly bring it back down. Interestingly enough, many who try this report that their fish never again seem to get ich, even if their tankmates do.

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but something interesting to think about.

Gene

A few weeks ago I brought home a couple redsided dace and a common shiner. I was keeping them quarantined in a 5 gallon bucket in the basement, but after about a week and a half got impatient and decided to go ahead and add them to my 75 gallon aquarium. The inhabitants they joined were: 3 rainbow darters, 1 fantail darter, 1 stonecat, 3 southern redbellied dace, 1 spotfin shiner, 1 emerald shiner, 1 blacknosed dace, and 2 longnosed dace. They were replacing a couple of spotfins, a banded killifish, and a bluntnosed minnow that had died over the past year (all fish that had been in the aquarium for at least 3 years and were likely getting old). Anyway about a week after adding the 3 I noticed one of the redsided dace had ich. I filled a 5 gallon bucket and treated it with coppersafe and put the afflicted redside in, hoping I had got to it before the ich had a chance to spread to the rest of the aquarium. No such luck. Sunday I saw that 2 of my redbellied dace, the spotfin, both longnosed dace, and the emerald shiner were all infected to varying degrees. The stonecat did not appear to be infected, but was acting strange in that at all hours of the day it was actively swimming. Usually it stays hidden in the plants until night. None of the darters appeared to be infected. I decided to treat the whole aquarium and slowly over several hours added a dose of coppersafe for about 68 gallons, to compensate for the gravel, and the fact that the tank isn't filled all the way.
I have continued to be confused by the the stonecat. About an hour or so after having added approximately half the dose, I found it stuck to the filter and I thought it was a goner. I was half expecting it to die if I used this stuff anyway as although the label doesn't say anything about it, I seem to remember someone telling me that it could be harmful to scaleless fish. The label does say to remove invertebrates without hard exoskeletons and that it may harm some amphibians. Anyhow I nettted it off the filter and it began to flop around vigorously in the net. I kept it trapped in the net near the surface, and left it in the aquarium over night. The next morning it was still alive. I released it and it swam around apparently okay. Tuesday night I got home from work to find the stonecat doing well but my 2 favorite darters were dead. One of them a rainbow I have had for 4 years now and it was an adult when caught, the other a fantail, I had for 2 years. If just the rainbow had died, I would have figured he's old it's just a coincidence, but it seemed a bit suspicious that they both picked the same day to die, so I am guessing it had something to do with the medication. The 2 remaining rainbows though are doing fine for now. Tonight I got home and again thought the stonecat was dead. It was laying on it's side, gray, and appeared stiff. I got the net and then noticed it was still breathing. I scooped it up and put it into a 5 quart icecream bucket and it swam around as though nothing was wrong. I did notice that it does have a few ich spots on it now. The spotfin and the aflicted redsided dace both did die today, though the redside no longer showed any sign of the disease. The longnosed dace have likewise lost all their ich spots but both have very nasty looking wounds. I would guess they have been scratching but haven't seen them doing so. The blacknosed dace is frequently scratching but has no spots or wounds. The emerald shiner, and one of the redbellied dace seem mildly infected, another redbelly is heavily infected, and the 3rd redbelly dace, the remaining redside dace, and the common shiner do not appear to be infected. All are still exhibiting normal behaviors.
Judging by their looks and actions, I don't hold out much hope for the longnosed dace or the stonecat. Time will tell with the rest I suppose. I am just so angry with myself right now because I did know better than to take those fish out of quarantine so early and yet I did it anyway. All of this could have easily been avoided.

I definitely did not read your whole post b/c I am much too lazy .

When I kept tropical, I really liked loaches and had several gigtantic clowns for quite a few years. I remember reading a great ich article in TFH magazine about using temperature alone to treat it, since scaleless fish are difficult to treat using Malachite green, methylene blue, etc.

Basically by slowly raising the temperature of your tank, and by assuring that plenty of dissolved oxygen is still kept in the tank either by using power filter and lowering the water level (or airstone) most fish do just fine and the parasite can be eliminated. The temperature range (which should only be raised slowly) is between 87-90F for most strains of ich. I found that 88F worked just fine.

Keep it there for about 5 days, and slowly bring it back down. Interestingly enough, many who try this report that their fish never again seem to get ich, even if their tankmates do.

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but something interesting to think about.

Gene

I don't have a lot of input for you, but I do feel very sorry for you as I know how frustrating this battle is and loosing fish stinks. I've been down a similar road with Gill Flukes. My guess on the Rainbow is that his age made it harder for him to withstand the medication. I've found this to remain true on very young juveniles and older fish as well.

My advice is just to slowly raise the temp of the tank, add more air, and salt. If you continue to use Coppersafe, I wouldn't use salt with it in the tank. I have used Coppersafe before with good results. Now is the time to really monitor the tank and continue treatment. If the ick has fallen off, continue to treat as now is when the medication will kill the ich while it's free floating. As for the wounds on the fish. I recommend a salt dip. This should help heal the wounds. Remember that scaleless fish or fish with small scales (daces) cannot handle as much salt as others. You may also research using Peroxide to treat the wounds. I have done this once to cure fin rot, but you have to be very careful with this. One fish I was treating flopped and got it's face on the Peroxide towel and it ate away it's eyes and it died. Also, once everything stabilizes, monitor water conditions closely. Most fish bacteria and parasites are usually in the tank all the time, but they don't attach to fish because of good health and slime coat. Stress and bad water conditions usually bring on infections in fish.

Hope some of this helps.

Yeah I hated losing those darters, especially the rainbow. He had learned to eat the cichlid pellets that I feed to the minnows and got huge. He was easily twice the size of any other darter that's been in the tank, and kept his color much better too.
Thank you both for the advice, I don't have a heater for the tank though so raising the temp isn't going to be practical, also I would be concerned for the remaining darters. They might be able to take it, but 88 just seems a bit high for them. The salt dips are probably a good idea too. I have never successfully done a salt dip on any fish but I think that is mostly because I have only used it as a last resort and probably waited till the fish were too far gone before trying it (only tried it a couple times too). The fishes that I think I would try it on are the long nosed dace, red bellied dace, and emerald shiner. These seem to be the only ones still left that have something visibly wrong with them. Jblaylock, do you have any recomendations on how much to use for the daces?
A little update on their status: the stonecat finally did really die, I checked him today before work and he was bloated, floating belly up, and not breathing. The emerald shiner took a turn for the worse (acting very lethargic and appears to have more spots but maybe they're just larger and more noticeable today) and the two long nosed dace, while they still have the big wounds, look remarkably better than last night. Other fish still appear about the same as they were last night.

I have done multiple salt dips on my fish. I did extensive dips when I had gill flukes and I dipped every fish I had when I moved them into my 75 gal. Here was my method, feel free to modify or change to fit your needs.

1. Use 2 containers - one for freshwater, one for salt water
-----Fill them both with water. I mix about 1/2 cup Aquarium salt for about 1/2 gallon of water. I don't have an exact mixture of what I use. I vary mine depending on how it effects the fish. Using smaller contains/buckets will allow you to use less salt and keep the same mixture.
2. Net the fish out, keep it in the net.
-----Dip the fish in the saltwater for about 30 seconds. If the fish 'kinks' or starts to turn upside down, take him out and put him in the freshwater. Most likely, he'll be fine (mine did this a lot and they were fine). If the fish kinks right after you put it in < 10 seconds, the salt mixture is too heavy. If it appears that the saltwater has no effect on them, you may want to up the mixture, but with you having open wounds you dont want to burn them
3. After the 30 second dip, dip it in freshwater for a bit to let it rinse off.
4. Repeat if needed
5. Return to tank

When I had gill flukes, I dipped my infected fish 2-3 times for 30 seconds each.

Edited by jblaylock, 29 May 2009 - 06:58 AM.

Flubendazole does pretty good at curing ich, velvet, many external and intestinal parasites, and hydra too. I'm not aware of any fish that dont handle it well, including very small fry, and it doesnt seem to mess up the biofilter. Here's a source: http://www.inkmkr.co...emsForSale.html