Does anyone in Tennessee ever encounter the silver shiner, Notropis photogenis? We're looking for a location (or donations...) for a gill fluke project. The species has apparently been extirpated from Alabama (last seen in 1983?), and maybe Georgia too, but appears to still be common in Tennessee. As always, thank ye.
Silver Shiner In Tennessee
Started by
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, Jun 11 2009 07:52 PM
17 replies to this topic
#3
Guest_farmertodd_*
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:35 AM
From memory (I can check my field notes next week), I remember getting a lot of them at the site we visited together on the Buffalo, downstream from the bridge. In fact, I remember them from a few sites on the Duck, but that's the one that immediately jumped to mind.
And while I don't think I wrote it down, I recall getting a lot there at the mill dam on the Sequatchie. Although, I would think that would have been part of our evening fare, since we were having a dead animal party. Maybe Ashton or Neely have better notes from there. Casper, did you ever write anything down from there, in your excursions?
Todd
And while I don't think I wrote it down, I recall getting a lot there at the mill dam on the Sequatchie. Although, I would think that would have been part of our evening fare, since we were having a dead animal party. Maybe Ashton or Neely have better notes from there. Casper, did you ever write anything down from there, in your excursions?
Todd
#4
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 08:00 AM
Thanks guys, the Buffalo and Sequatchie would both work for my purposes. I'd forgotten about silver shiners at the Buffalo, I'm still fixated on that drunk dancing around the copperhead... We're interested in a site as far south and west as possible and since the species is probably gone from 'bama the Buffalo and Sequatchie are good second choices.
#5
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 08:30 AM
Don't have them recorded from Kettners Mill but I do have "unknown shiner" written on a raw data sheet at that location and a few miles downstream. I pickled them, but Tyler has all my fish. Quite possibly was a silver, I had only seen a few before that and they were large and obvious. It wouldn't surprise me if you could get them at the bridge near RM 12.
#6
Guest_Casper Cox_*
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:06 AM
Sorry...
Silver Shiners is an unknown for me. I dont ever recall someone calling it out while in the water. ( Not to say they didnt. )
Good Luck...
When you find a location i will gladly help you collect some, if need be.
Then i can learn a bit more.
Casper
Silver Shiners is an unknown for me. I dont ever recall someone calling it out while in the water. ( Not to say they didnt. )
Good Luck...
When you find a location i will gladly help you collect some, if need be.
Then i can learn a bit more.
Casper
#7
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:15 PM
We did get them there. Now I remember. I was trying to show Casper the "moons" around the nasal pores, and he said "Uhm hmm" in his Caspery way, and put it into his baggie, which is why I remember... Because I recall thinking "Man, now I can't even see the moons." lol
lol
#8
Guest_Casper Cox_*
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 08:33 PM
You know i kinda remember that. Some of you guys really got the gift and skill of identification. It has been a long tough swim for me but i am pleased that i can identify a few of them, especially my regional regulars. Drop me off somewhere else tho and i am overwhelmed quickly. Im not too lost in some places, i do remember who aced the Stripe, Scarlet and Tennessee Extravaganza last spring ).
That is part of what makes this a fun and interesting experience. There are times that im quite content just to observe and not overwhelm myself with what their man designated names are, but i do enjoy counting species observed at a given location.
Come on Bruce... lets catch some of them Silver Shiners. It may take awhile to carefully seperate out the Stripe Shiners, Tennessee Shiners, Telescope Shiners, Spotfin Shiners, Whitetail Shiners and all those other silver colored shiners. I promise to study my books first. Get out the maps, make it a quest.
So Todd... where were we standing when the moon dropped?
That is part of what makes this a fun and interesting experience. There are times that im quite content just to observe and not overwhelm myself with what their man designated names are, but i do enjoy counting species observed at a given location.
Come on Bruce... lets catch some of them Silver Shiners. It may take awhile to carefully seperate out the Stripe Shiners, Tennessee Shiners, Telescope Shiners, Spotfin Shiners, Whitetail Shiners and all those other silver colored shiners. I promise to study my books first. Get out the maps, make it a quest.
So Todd... where were we standing when the moon dropped?
#9
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 08:51 PM
Yeah, I think we'll have to track down silver shiners in the Sequatchie sometime soon. We'll be looking for the ultimate silvery shiner from what I can tell, having only seen them once. I'm more and more a sucker for silvery shiners of late.
#10
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Posted 13 June 2009 - 09:11 AM
You do real well Casper, don't think otherwise. I guarantee you the difference is that you're seeing the same stuff when you're doing a fish related activity, it's just that for some of us, it's a 24/7 obsession. I don't know how many times you've looked through Fishes of Tennessee in bed, but I think that's the metric or baseline. You're not obsessed until your wife wakes you up at 3:00 am because she just stubbed her toe on your texts "AGAIN", and "will you get these $%(^%@ books put somewhere besides in MY way!?". Uh huh. And that's pretty much what it takes to unravel the Mystery of the Shiner
Like you said... It's nice to just sit and observe and not worry about what people call it. "Pretty" works pretty well for me!
Where we got them was at Ketners Mill, downstream in the first run off the scour pool. They'll be in the faster water over small gravel. They're best sampled by doing downstream runs, although if you chew up the substrate with your feet a bit to draw in the cyprinids, you can get them pretty easily by doing that downstream toss of the seine.
As for identifying them, the most distinctive mark, in any age class, are the crescents (moons) on the inside of each nostril. Here's a good overall lateral view of the fish:
http://www.dnr.state...ions/notpho.pdf
Which of course, could be 3 or 4 different things, esp emerald shiner. But if you take a dorsal view of the head, you'll see this crude drawing in much better detail:
Once you see it, and you train yourself to flip any emerald looking Notropis into a dorsal view, you won't miss it. It's really distinctive.
Good luck!
Todd
Like you said... It's nice to just sit and observe and not worry about what people call it. "Pretty" works pretty well for me!
Where we got them was at Ketners Mill, downstream in the first run off the scour pool. They'll be in the faster water over small gravel. They're best sampled by doing downstream runs, although if you chew up the substrate with your feet a bit to draw in the cyprinids, you can get them pretty easily by doing that downstream toss of the seine.
As for identifying them, the most distinctive mark, in any age class, are the crescents (moons) on the inside of each nostril. Here's a good overall lateral view of the fish:
http://www.dnr.state...ions/notpho.pdf
Which of course, could be 3 or 4 different things, esp emerald shiner. But if you take a dorsal view of the head, you'll see this crude drawing in much better detail:
Once you see it, and you train yourself to flip any emerald looking Notropis into a dorsal view, you won't miss it. It's really distinctive.
Good luck!
Todd
#11
Guest_Casper Cox_*
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Posted 13 June 2009 - 09:31 AM
Excellent...
That, if i remember correctly, is when you and Ed and i were trying to gather a gar for the supper party.
Thanks for the lesson and Bruce that site is one of several nice sites on the Sequatchie and Little Sequatchie. It would make for a fun day. I have access to a long stretch on the Little Sequatchie of private property. Im overdue for another visit.
Today im headed over the the South Chick Picnic with a smaller seine for less back strain.
Any silver unknown shiners will be properly oriented for moon views.
That, if i remember correctly, is when you and Ed and i were trying to gather a gar for the supper party.
Thanks for the lesson and Bruce that site is one of several nice sites on the Sequatchie and Little Sequatchie. It would make for a fun day. I have access to a long stretch on the Little Sequatchie of private property. Im overdue for another visit.
Today im headed over the the South Chick Picnic with a smaller seine for less back strain.
Any silver unknown shiners will be properly oriented for moon views.
#12
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Posted 13 June 2009 - 10:46 PM
Did you find any Casper? I wouldn't be surprised if you got them in South Chick. In fact, I'd be more surprised if they weren't there with it's proximity to the Tennessee.
Bruce, are you sure they're not in the lower Elk or Paint Rock? As I thought about their distribution in AL, it occurred to me that both those streams would be large enough to support their activities, although the Paint Rock may not be productive enough for them.
Of course, the Tennessee may be too fragmented for them now. The big populations that I've run into have been in the Scioto, Tippecanoe and Wabash Rivers, which have long segments of unimpeded flow.
Bruce, are you sure they're not in the lower Elk or Paint Rock? As I thought about their distribution in AL, it occurred to me that both those streams would be large enough to support their activities, although the Paint Rock may not be productive enough for them.
Of course, the Tennessee may be too fragmented for them now. The big populations that I've run into have been in the Scioto, Tippecanoe and Wabash Rivers, which have long segments of unimpeded flow.
#13
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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:43 AM
The only recent reports for silver shiner in Alabama are 1983 in Shoal Creek, way to the west of here, and the Elk River immediately upstream from the Alabama line in Tennessee, in the early 90's I think. You're right that the Paint Rock would seem to be suitable habitat but there seem to be no reports of them, maybe an accident over recent geological history? The upper Flint River to the west, and the Cypress Creek system in the NW corner of the state, would also seem to be believable candidates. The Elk River has been hugely modified by damning of the Tennessee starting in the 1930s. On the other hand, maybe no one ever noticed them as just another silvery shiner. There are some other creeks in Lauderdale County near Florence that would seem to be believable habitat too, which aren't regularly visited by aquatic biologists. So, who knows?
#14
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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:22 AM
"Another silvery shiner" is a viable hypothesis
Does the Elk hit pool just over the AL border? That might be why they're not in the AL portion. They really like those long flowing runs. There was great habitat for them where we looked just over in TN or JUST over the border. You might talk to Jet Boat Neely too... There's a launch just downstream of the border. You might especially entice him if there's any muskies in the Elk, so I hear
Shoal Creek may have more gradient for longer with the smaller watershed and less amount of work it's done compared to the Elk, so it's more suitable. Although the limited catchment may be a limiting factor.
I really need to spend more time in these Tennessee River streams. If I get that far down, I keep motoring on into the Mobile watershed. I woulda stopped at the Duck an hour or two earlier, if I wanted to see what was in the TN River drainage Maybe someday I'll live more close and it won't be such an issue.
It's funny to think of silver shiner "in trouble". Esp in habitat like there that was historically so danged suitable for them. I mean, in Michigan, it's one thing - zoogeographic factors and limited habitat. But those big rivers? When I got my Mussels of Alabama book and saw the pictures and diagrams of Muscle Shoals, I almost puked.
Todd
Does the Elk hit pool just over the AL border? That might be why they're not in the AL portion. They really like those long flowing runs. There was great habitat for them where we looked just over in TN or JUST over the border. You might talk to Jet Boat Neely too... There's a launch just downstream of the border. You might especially entice him if there's any muskies in the Elk, so I hear
Shoal Creek may have more gradient for longer with the smaller watershed and less amount of work it's done compared to the Elk, so it's more suitable. Although the limited catchment may be a limiting factor.
I really need to spend more time in these Tennessee River streams. If I get that far down, I keep motoring on into the Mobile watershed. I woulda stopped at the Duck an hour or two earlier, if I wanted to see what was in the TN River drainage
Maybe someday I'll live more close and it won't be such an issue. It's funny to think of silver shiner "in trouble". Esp in habitat like there that was historically so danged suitable for them. I mean, in Michigan, it's one thing - zoogeographic factors and limited habitat. But those big rivers? When I got my Mussels of Alabama book and saw the pictures and diagrams of Muscle Shoals, I almost puked.
Todd
#15
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Posted 14 June 2009 - 12:29 PM
Yes, the Elk has only about 5-6 miles in Alabama that are truly free-flowing before being pooled from the Tennessee's pool. I did a mussel survey in the middle of that stretch about 5 years ago and spotted boulder darters along the shore while snorkeling. But several species of now-rare mussel were already gone due to a water plant's illegal damming of the river there. I wouldn't be surprised if silver shiners are still there since there's steady flow over extensive gravel bottom, but the river's relatively large, ~40 meters wide and often neck-deep, so it'd be a challenge to sample. Either way I'll have to keep an eye out for the species in various north-side Tennessee tribs.
#16
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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:01 PM
I don't recall getting them in the Paint Rock in the RM 15-25 section. I do remeber seeing some in some jars on the shelf from the middle Elk during a wild host collection study. Like I said earlier, they were pretty common in the Little River. As for ID'ing them, I think they are really distinguishable from telescopes and Tennesse's because of the long profile, almost lack of caudal spot and sharp fin margins/angles.
#17
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Posted 14 June 2009 - 05:32 PM
Bruce,
I've recently picked them up a couple of places near you, including the Sequatchie, Elk (in TN, and possibly in AL post-1983, checking on this...), Duck, Buffalo, Emory, Little R, etc. I'm in the field for a couple more days and will be back where I can check my field notes by the 19th or 20th or so. Let me know if you want to try to get out after these sometime this summer... always fun pulling a bag seine and I still need popeyes from a couple of sites.
cheers,
Dave
(and, as Todd alluded to, river access is no longer restricted to bridges.
I've recently picked them up a couple of places near you, including the Sequatchie, Elk (in TN, and possibly in AL post-1983, checking on this...), Duck, Buffalo, Emory, Little R, etc. I'm in the field for a couple more days and will be back where I can check my field notes by the 19th or 20th or so. Let me know if you want to try to get out after these sometime this summer... always fun pulling a bag seine and I still need popeyes from a couple of sites.
cheers,
Dave
(and, as Todd alluded to, river access is no longer restricted to bridges.
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