I am down to my last fathead minnow. When I first got them they lived a fairly rough and tumble life chasing each other, only to occasionally race up and down in the bubbler like my dace did. But slowly they started dying and I fear my last one may be next. Before each one died it developed an odd behavior I call the flips.
They start becoming more and more obsessed with racing up and down in the bubblers air stream, then their racing goes from purely verticle to back flips and the back flip loops get smaller and smaller.
I only seen this effect fathead minnows so far, does anyone know what this is and how to cure it?
fish sickness: the flips?
Started by
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, Jun 30 2009 12:44 AM
41 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Gene2308_*
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Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:57 AM
I usually see the "darting followed by flopping over backwards" in a tank with poor water chemistry. Since you mention to obvious patches of white skin, reddish coloration, gill abnormalities, etc. It sounds like your tank is not cycled properly, either due to adding too many fish too quickly, feeding too much, or a combination of the two.
What other fish you have in there? It is not unusual to see some species handle things that kill other fish.
What other fish you have in there? It is not unusual to see some species handle things that kill other fish.
Edited by Gene2308, 30 June 2009 - 05:59 AM.
#3
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
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Posted 30 June 2009 - 08:43 AM
I usually see the "darting followed by flopping over backwards" in a tank with poor water chemistry. Since you mention to obvious patches of white skin, reddish coloration, gill abnormalities, etc. It sounds like your tank is not cycled properly, either due to adding too many fish too quickly, feeding too much, or a combination of the two.
What other fish you have in there? It is not unusual to see some species handle things that kill other fish.
My other fish are a tesselated darter and about 8 feeder guppies. The tank is a 55 gallon. I had it for about 3 weeks and the water quality is stuck with the ammonia levels at stressful. I have put in ammonia neutralizer, changed water, etc. and it is stuck at that level. The nitrate/nitite levels have not started raising yet despite me adding several different brands of store bought bacteria.
#4
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Posted 30 June 2009 - 11:20 AM
My other fish are a tesselated darter and about 8 feeder guppies. The tank is a 55 gallon. I had it for about 3 weeks and the water quality is stuck with the ammonia levels at stressful. I have put in ammonia neutralizer, changed water, etc. and it is stuck at that level. The nitrate/nitite levels have not started raising yet despite me adding several different brands of store bought bacteria.
If you have another aquarium that is cycling nitrogen properly, then swap filters. A filter from the established tank is a more reliable inoculum than any of the store bought material.
#5
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Posted 30 June 2009 - 01:42 PM
If that's not available, then you just need to do lots of water changes for the next 3-5 weeks to keep the fish alive. It's interesting that the darter seems ok, but you may have just got a very healthy one initially. The symptoms you're describing do sound like ammonia poisoning.
Test the water daily too, and be mindful that nitrite is toxic at lower concentrations than ammonia, and it will spike higher and faster, so you need to know when you get to that stage.
The usual recommendation is that you need to change water enough to prevent the tank from ever exceeding 1 ppm ammonia or 0.5 ppm nitrite, so if you're starting a water change and levels are higher than that, you should increase frequency or volume of changes.
Test the water daily too, and be mindful that nitrite is toxic at lower concentrations than ammonia, and it will spike higher and faster, so you need to know when you get to that stage.
The usual recommendation is that you need to change water enough to prevent the tank from ever exceeding 1 ppm ammonia or 0.5 ppm nitrite, so if you're starting a water change and levels are higher than that, you should increase frequency or volume of changes.
#6
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Posted 30 June 2009 - 03:13 PM
I remember being in your place, it's frustrating. What you need to do is quit adding stuff. I know it makes you feel like you're doing something, but it won't help. Don't use the ammonia neutralizers, they'll prolong your cycle. At this point, adding more bacteria is wasting your money. Keep testing and monitoring the cycle, and do lots of water changes. Big ones, 30 or 50%. Every day if you need to, though you probably won't, your tank is very lightly stocked. Remember: The solution to pollution is dilution! Water changes will dilute the ammonia to less stressful levels.
#7
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 02:09 AM
Susan (schambers), gzeiger, and centrarchid offer some good advice. I know it's hard not to add chemicals at this point, but it won't help in the long run. Water changes are the answer. It may seem like a simple solution to the problem, but I think that it's the best recommendation out there. And you may lose a few more fish, but hopefully not. It's amazing what a large water change can do! I wish you the best keeping your remaining fish alive!
Brian
Brian
#8
Guest_Gene2308_*
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 06:29 AM
Don't use the ammonia neutralizers, they'll prolong your cycle.
Ditto on this one. Didn't you already ask this once before? Ammonia reducing chemicals are worthless and targeted at new aquarium people who are inexperienced and are pushed to buy stuff they don't need....just like biozyme, cycle, etc.
It's amazing what a large water change can do!
Agreed, but I might not do one for a new tank with ammonia problems....I would probably just reduce feeding and let the tank cycle itself.
Edited by Gene2308, 01 July 2009 - 06:29 AM.
#9
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 12:02 PM
Why in the world would you not change water that has ammonia and fish in it?
It's true that the filter will develop slightly faster with a higher ammonia concentration, but the fish won't survive it.
It's true that the filter will develop slightly faster with a higher ammonia concentration, but the fish won't survive it.
#10
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 12:16 PM
Why in the world would you not change water that has ammonia and fish in it?
It's true that the filter will develop slightly faster with a higher ammonia concentration, but the fish won't survive it.
I changed it 4 times last week (about 20 gallons of it) and this week so far i changed it once (13 gallons worth) and will change 5 to 10 gallons today. Who said i wasn't changing it.
#11
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 01:38 PM
That was a response to the post above mine, not anything to do with you. What kind of ammonia concentration do your water tests show anyway?
#12
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 02:06 PM
first chaos you need to get rid of the strips and get the liquid test kit. and yeah it sounds like ammonia poisoning. do not add anymore fish...you may need to be doing 50-75 percent water changes if your ammonia is very high.
#13
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:29 PM
first chaos you need to get rid of the strips and get the liquid test kit. and yeah it sounds like ammonia poisoning. do not add anymore fish...you may need to be doing 50-75 percent water changes if your ammonia is very high.
I have been avoiding larger changes as i do not want the canister filter to suck air as it is hard to get running right.
As for not adding new fish, it is a good idea, but i don't know if my feeder guppies will comply with it. They outgrew the "being food" size and have had some offspring, the darter eats some but not all. (I went from 8 to 4 before they outgrew food size, now I have more than 4 but a quantumly indeterminate number which never seems the same).
#14
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Posted 02 July 2009 - 12:45 AM
Spawning guppies isn't that big a deal in this context. Just don't add more on purpose yet.
Canister filters can be a problem with large water changes. You can compensate by doing a series of smaller changes. 25% twice isn't quite as good as 50%, but your test kit can guide you as to how much is required.
Canister filters can be a problem with large water changes. You can compensate by doing a series of smaller changes. 25% twice isn't quite as good as 50%, but your test kit can guide you as to how much is required.
#15
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Posted 09 July 2009 - 11:59 AM
Why in the world would you not change water that has ammonia and fish in it?
Because (in my and many other's experience) it tends to "stall out" the nitrification process, or at least slightly increases the time needed to culture nitrifiers and cycle the tank. This has just been my experience and is not to be taken as anything other than that...your mileage may vary
I would venture a guess that even with all of those water changes, his/her ammonia probably spiked back up to almost exactly where it was immediate prior to the water change.
Edited by Gene2308, 09 July 2009 - 11:59 AM.
#16
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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:04 PM
first chaos you need to get rid of the strips and get the liquid test kit. and yeah it sounds like ammonia poisoning. do not add anymore fish...you may need to be doing 50-75 percent water changes if your ammonia is very high.
I just tried the liquid test strips but i don't quite test their results. During the first two tests I did (ammonia and nitrate) especially during the first (ammonia) some of the "drops" I added were more spurts than drops.
I also trust the strips a bit more as both brands of nitrate/nitrite strips (quick dip, and fish care for dummies) tend to agree with each other. sadly i cannot say that for ammonia strips as the one in "dummies" do not work. (thus making me a dummy for even buying that brand of strip). But the quick dip strips do agree with a stick on ammonia meter i got in my tank.
Here are the liquid test results and the strip test results
LIQUID
Ammonia: 1 mg
Nitrite: 0.5 mg/l (actually a shade between 0.0 and 0.5 but closer to 0.5)
Nitrate: 10 mg
STRIPS
Ammonia: .5
Nitrite: between 0 and .5 closer to 0 (barely showing a hint of color)
Nitrate: between 0 and 20, the greyish strip discoloration has finally became a pinkish one the last few days, but still lower than the next number level.
#17
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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:08 PM
I don't care what any books say. Strips are useless. Drops are the only way to test. I don't know the measurements u gave. I'm used to seeing ppm. Parts per million
#18
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Posted 10 July 2009 - 02:16 AM
I don't care what any books say. Strips are useless. Drops are the only way to test. I don't know the measurements u gave. I'm used to seeing ppm. Parts per million
I believe ppm and mg/L are pretty much interchangable.
#19
Guest_Gene2308_*
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Posted 10 July 2009 - 04:09 AM
mg/L and ppm are exactly the same, it can be shown with some quick mathematics
ppm= 1/1,000,000
mg/L= 0.001/1,000
Just move the mg/L over 3 decimal places for "mg" and "L" respectively.
Oh, and agreed that liquid kits are FAR better than test strips.
ppm= 1/1,000,000
mg/L= 0.001/1,000
Just move the mg/L over 3 decimal places for "mg" and "L" respectively.
Oh, and agreed that liquid kits are FAR better than test strips.
Edited by Gene2308, 10 July 2009 - 04:10 AM.
#20
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 10 July 2009 - 08:33 AM
mg/L and ppm are exactly the same, it can be shown with some quick mathematics
ppm= 1/1,000,000
mg/L= 0.001/1,000
Just move the mg/L over 3 decimal places for "mg" and "L" respectively.
Oh, and agreed that liquid kits are FAR better than test strips.
Interesting version of quick mathematics to totally ignore that "mg" is a measure of mass and "L" is a measure of volume. And even if this does work for water based solutions (which I know is all we care about here), I do not believe it would be true for other liquids.
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