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Help Identifying Darter

Started by Guest_bryanfaz_* , Aug 17 2009 10:28 PM

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23 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_bryanfaz_*

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:28 PM

Good evening!

I caught this Darter yesterday afternoon and took this video shortly thereafter. The fish was caught in a creek behind my house, in Madisonville, KY. Any help identifying it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!!

Video of Darter

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#2 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:01 AM

Just as an FYI...Taking fish home that have not been identified can get you in a heap of trouble. If you collected a protected fish, you might not only have to answer to authorities but also would have a negative impact on a sensitive fish.
This is pinned at the top of the ID assistance forum http://forum.nanfa.o...-in-this-forum/

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#3 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:46 PM

Just as an FYI...Taking fish home that have not been identified can get you in a heap of trouble. If you collected a protected fish, you might not only have to answer to authorities but also would have a negative impact on a sensitive fish.
This is pinned at the top of the ID assistance forum http://forum.nanfa.o...-in-this-forum/

Just to voice that there is another perspective on this. Do not be discouraged from going out observing fish in your area, and even bringing some home for observation and study. Pursuing your interest in natural history is important and don't read much into the warnings you may read here and elsewhere.

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#4 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:09 PM

Just to voice that there is another perspective on this. Do not be discouraged from going out observing fish in your area, and even bringing some home for observation and study. Pursuing your interest in natural history is important and don't read much into the warnings you may read here and elsewhere.

Tom, while I agree with your statement that no one should be discouraged from going out and obsevering what their local creeks and streams hold, regardless of the possibility of protected species, I do not think it is wise to encourage someone to bring home a fish until they have correctly identified the fish. This is both unethical and illegal in many instances. Digital cameras and cell phones are very inexpensive these days and a couple of quick pictures of a fish you are unsure of streamside will do the trick. After it has been verified as a non-protcted species, then I strongly encourage taking home a few if you can properly house them. You know better than most that there are many rare and understudied species, particularly in KY and TN, and I would hate to see a population damaged because someone was unaware of what they were dealing with.

Getting out and seeing the jewels that live in our local waterways is essential to those unfamiliar with what is there gaining a respect and responsibility for their creeks and streams. No one here wants to stifle anyone's curiosity or interest. We only want to see that it is pursued in a responsible fashion.

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#5 Guest_bryanfaz_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:38 PM

Well folks...I am not impressed. Is this how you treat all of your new members? Lecture them ad nauseam about how NOT to collect fish species. In fact, you have no clue what perils awaited this fish. I did not collect it...I rescued it as the creek behind my house doesn't hold water that often. This is the first time in three years we've had enough rain for it to hold water. And, today the hole the darter was in is completely dry. It had no way to escape, unless someone took the initiative to rescue the darter without regard to the "authorities". Oh...reality check. The "authorities" you refer to? The closest thing we have to the protected fish police would be our local fish and wildlife officers....and they don't spend their time harassing homeowners who spend their time rescuing darters (protected or otherwise) from creeks that are usually dry in July, August and September...and, will be dry in a matter of days if not hours.

I ask for help identifying a fish and I receive warnings. Thank you, Dustin, for approaching civility. I notice none of you had the common courtesy to assist in identifying this particular darter? Unbelievable. What a website!

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#6 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:52 PM

Politics, welcome to the forum!

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#7 Guest_bryanfaz_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:56 PM

Thank you Natureman187! That's the nicest comment I've received from a member of this forum.

Much appreciated!!

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#8 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 02:26 PM

Well folks...I am not impressed. Is this how you treat all of your new members? Lecture them ad nauseam about how NOT to collect fish species. In fact, you have no clue what perils awaited this fish. I did not collect it...I rescued it as the creek behind my house doesn't hold water that often. This is the first time in three years we've had enough rain for it to hold water. And, today the hole the darter was in is completely dry. It had no way to escape, unless someone took the initiative to rescue the darter without regard to the "authorities". Oh...reality check. The "authorities" you refer to? The closest thing we have to the protected fish police would be our local fish and wildlife officers....and they don't spend their time harassing homeowners who spend their time rescuing darters (protected or otherwise) from creeks that are usually dry in July, August and September...and, will be dry in a matter of days if not hours.

I ask for help identifying a fish and I receive warnings. Thank you, Dustin, for approaching civility. I notice none of you had the common courtesy to assist in identifying this particular darter? Unbelievable. What a website!

I'm sorry you took offense to my post. It was short and to the point. I didn't call you names or in any way try to discourage you. I simply don't want you getting in trouble nor do I want people taking sensitive fish.
As far as the "fish police"...we are regularly monitored by the very authorities responsible to report and or enforce the regulations....they in part make our membership as dues paying NANFA members. I'm not sure what type of penalties are involved with possession of federally protected creatures and I will be sure never to find out.

I think you should get out and see as many fish as possible (I know I do) but I will encourage you to not only bring along an ID book and verify what you've caught, but also please refrain from taking sensitive species.

My home water does not have a single federally protected fish. Heck, I don't even have a state endangered or threatened fish but as Dustin said, Kentucky is an entirely different story. I know my position on this strikes new members as rude and I wish there was a gentler way to put it but there really isn't...If you take home fish that have not been identified, you have the potential to put yourself in a situation where you might compromise yourself or wild fish. Please don't take offense or take my comments personally. Our ability to continue this hobby is in question as states reevaluate laws that regulate this activity. If we do not manage ourselves, I'm afraid states will manage our hobby for us.

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#9 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 02:29 PM

I ask for help identifying a fish and I receive warnings. Thank you, Dustin, for approaching civility. I notice none of you had the common courtesy to assist in identifying this particular darter? Unbelievable. What a website!

I would have made an attempt to ID the darter, but I have to say anything I would come up with would be a guess. I am only vaguely familiar with the area and the video washes out some of the color of the fish. I am certain that someone with direct knowledge of the area will help you out with the ID. Did you happen to get any photos? Or can you get one? That might help.

I am sorry that you feel as though you were treated rudely. While we want to encourage everyone to enjoy their natural resources, it is just as important to us to make sure that this is done in a responsible manner to ensure that these resources are available for future generations to enjoy as well. No one was accusing you of anything. We just wanted to be certain you were aware of the fact that there could be sensitive species in your area that you need to be aware of. We have found that many folks that come to the forum that are new to natives have never really thought about that aspect of the hobby and we just want to be sure that everyone is reminded of their responsibilities when dealing with our native fauna.

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#10 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 02:30 PM

Politics, welcome to the forum!

Lance...I'm gonna poke back :biggrin:

I think you meant to type "Ethics, welcome to the forum"

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#11 Guest_Dustin_*

Guests

Posted 18 August 2009 - 02:34 PM

Just to get you started and pointed in the right direct, my best guess for the fish is a very washed out emerald darter, Etheostoma baileyi. I am sure someone will correct me at some point....

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#12 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 18 August 2009 - 03:42 PM

Just to get you started and pointed in the right direct, my best guess for the fish is a very washed out emerald darter, Etheostoma baileyi. I am sure someone will correct me at some point....

I would not be willing to correct you, becasue:
1) your often right
2) the id is difficult on such a small fish
3) I can't decide if I am more afraid of our members (who can at times be direct) or the newbies (who are almost always twice as rude, or sensitive or whatever, when they don't get an the answer they want to hear)

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#13 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 04:42 PM

Tom, while I agree with your statement that no one should be discouraged from going out and obsevering what their local creeks and streams hold, regardless of the possibility of protected species, I do not think it is wise to encourage someone to bring home a fish until they have correctly identified the fish. This is both unethical and illegal in many instances. Digital cameras and cell phones are very inexpensive these days and a couple of quick pictures of a fish you are unsure of streamside will do the trick. After it has been verified as a non-protcted species, then I strongly encourage taking home a few if you can properly house them. You know better than most that there are many rare and understudied species, particularly in KY and TN, and I would hate to see a population damaged because someone was unaware of what they were dealing with.

Getting out and seeing the jewels that live in our local waterways is essential to those unfamiliar with what is there gaining a respect and responsibility for their creeks and streams. No one here wants to stifle anyone's curiosity or interest. We only want to see that it is pursued in a responsible fashion.

If you can provide any evidence that involves a non-professional removing a specimen or two of a given species has any noticeable impact on the population, I will stand corrected. The fact is that you cannot provide such evidence, and when you jump all over a new person about ethics you drive them away and make yourselves look silly. A man much wiser than me once said "Collecting rare fish does not make them rare."

As a scientist I have to get permits and permission to collect protected species, and I have no problem with that. However, replying to a someone on this forum with a preachy judgmental laden response does not help. Try a PM to the "offender" and post an ID for the person.

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#14 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 04:45 PM

I'll go with the E. Gracile, the Slough Darter.

Run down this list and you'll find Madisonville East and West. This will help you ID and know what kind of fish are in your area.

KY Fish Species Quad Lists

Also, I got the same lecture from the board when I first began collecting here in KY. It was almost enough to make me give up the forum. However, I hung in there, though it does seem like most of the members here don't respond or discuss topics that I and JohnO start concerning KY darters. There are several people here that are from central KY so if your ever in the area let me know. I may be down around mammoth cave later this week.

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#15 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 04:47 PM

Good evening!

I caught this Darter yesterday afternoon and took this video shortly thereafter. The fish was caught in a creek behind my house, in Madisonville, KY. Any help identifying it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!!

Video of Darter

I agree that this "looks" like a Slough Darter, Etheostoma gracile. However, it is hard to tell from your video. Could also be an Emerald Darter, Etheostoma baileyi. Go out and get a few more and share the photos!

Edited by TomNear, 18 August 2009 - 04:48 PM.

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#16 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 05:32 PM

If you can provide any evidence that involves a non-professional removing a specimen or two of a given species has any noticeable impact on the population, I will stand corrected. The fact is that you cannot provide such evidence, and when you jump all over a new person about ethics you drive them away and make yourselves look silly. A man much wiser than me once said "Collecting rare fish does not make them rare."

As a scientist I have to get permits and permission to collect protected species, and I have no problem with that. However, replying to a someone on this forum with a preachy judgmental laden response does not help. Try a PM to the "offender" and post an ID for the person.

Tom, there are exceptions to what you say. If people collected "only" one or two Devil's Hole pupfish, that would have a measurable impact on a population limited to one spring with a maximum adult population of 500, and we all know how stochastic processes can play out. And under anthropogenic stresses it could matter, like possibly with the whiteline topminnow, Fundulus albolineatus, here in Huntsville, AL, before it disappeared for good from its spring run habitat about 1890 (and maybe what's left of F. julisia today up in the Tennessee Barrens?).

But you're probably right that we can handle this better.

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#17 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 07:15 PM

If you can provide any evidence that involves a non-professional removing a specimen or two of a given species has any noticeable impact on the population, I will stand corrected. The fact is that you cannot provide such evidence, and when you jump all over a new person about ethics you drive them away and make yourselves look silly. A man much wiser than me once said "Collecting rare fish does not make them rare."

As a scientist I have to get permits and permission to collect protected species, and I have no problem with that. However, replying to a someone on this forum with a preachy judgmental laden response does not help. Try a PM to the "offender" and post an ID for the person.

You know what, Tom, you are absolutely right on most accounts here. We could have handled this, and other, new people with "ID this" posts much better and I hope in the future we take your advice and PM them first. I think the initial reaction is more of a reminder to all than it is a scolding to one. Every one of us started out green and if we had been treated in a similar manner, it may have turned us off as well. I also agree with you that removing a few fish from even the most imperiled, accessible population is not going to have any noticeable effect. The problem is that very few folks that are taking natives for their aquariums only take a few. They typically take several and then come back and take several more and then come back and take several more and so on. I suppose my only real issue with your suggestions is that it is often illegal to take these imperiled species and I don't think it is a good idea to promote to taking of species with legal protection. I also think that there are very many beautiful, common species that are appropraite for keeping in a home aquarium which makes it unethical and unnecessary to attempt more rare fish.

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#18 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:47 AM

Let's put this in perspective. I live in central KY, an hour's drive from several prime darter drainages. I first found darters when I was a boy growing up on a farm, and about four years ago, started that interest back up again. Knowing local landowners, being aware of cultural customs, and generally looking like a good ol' boy just grabbing a few minnows have been great assets when it comes to getting into streams on private land, where most of the prime darter streams are.

In those four years, I've prowled mountain streams at least twice a month, and have found around 25 darter species. How many endangered species have I found? Zero. Closest I've come is an Ashy darter, which merits only the special concern list, and it was found in the Rockcastle River, where they are known to exist. I put it back, and left the area so I wouldn't disrupt habitat further.

Your chances of finding an endangered darter are very slight, even when you're looking in Darter Central, like I am. Heck, we had the devil of a time finding orangefin darters, and they aren't endangered. So while I would agree that one should familiarize themselves with what is scarce in the area that they're in, and certainly exercise caution in what they take or even disturb, I wouldn't discourage anyone from looking. You might find something new. It's not like you hold a dipnet over a creek and the endangered darters just hop right in.

The greatest danger to darters isn't people taking an endangered species or two, it's habitat destruction. In KY, that comes from coal mining, industrial and residential development. From what I've read, darters in general face the same peril. The best way to combat habitat destruction is education. Most people who see my photos had no idea such fish existed in those creeks. They're more likely to support legislation to protect the streams, if they know what is in the streams. As unfair as it may be, people will support the preservation of a darter in breeding colors far more readily than a mud ugly minnow. I'll take support any way I can get it. If darter habitat is to be preserved, grassroots support is mandatory. Barking at people who have an interest in the subject is not a good way to get grassroots support.

I'm with Tom on this one. Even us rank amateurs can make an interesting find or two. Especially if we can get to places that researchers can't.

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#19 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:06 AM

The range and habitat are wrong for E. gracile. That species is restricted to the Jackson Purchase in Kentucky and is very much a slackwater species; most of the ones I have caught have been in company with mosquitofish and banded pygmy sunfish, if that gives you an idea of their habitat. You're way outside the range of E. baileyi as well.

I am far from being a darter expert, but it sure looks like a member of the subgenus Ulocentra to me, and the only Ulocentra in your area is E. rafinesquei.

Edited by Newt, 19 August 2009 - 10:07 AM.