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Can't make my mind up!

Started by Guest_lozgod_* , Aug 31 2009 09:08 PM

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#1 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:08 PM

Situation: Have a 75 gallon aquarium.

Dilemma: Can't decide between small number/big fish i.e. sunnies and cat(s) or many small fish i.e. minnows, shiners, and darters.

I like the big fish idea because they are more visible and I can go lighter on the plants and focus on driftwood and cool stuff like that. Don't have to worry about creating a current, riffles, etc.

Flip side is more bio-load, less variety, less plants, live feeders so more trips to the fish store.

Originally I was thinking about doing a heavily planted aquarium and going all out. CO2, live substrate, high lighting, the works. Maybe like 10 schooling shiners, a few top minnows and darters. One of my reservations is I love catfish. I worry about madtoms, even small ones, eating their tankmates. With the bigger fish I can have a bullhead or 2. I lose out on the whole beautiful aquascape idea but that isn't necessarily a bad thing because I've been out of the hobby for a while and would probably benefit from some experience before jumping right in to it. Don't get me wrong. I've spent plenty of late nights researching it and think I could do it. I just want catfish I guess could sum it up.

Maybe some madtoms and pygmy sunfish with moderate plants.

If I sound lost or am making no sense maybe I am. So many choices, so little compatibility.

#2 Guest_stuber2_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:16 PM

I have a tadpole madtom, he has eaten very very small fathead minnows, but nothing else. He is currently in a tank with two central mudminnows, and four full grown fatheads. He has been fine with them, they are too big for him to eat. I also have some orangethroat darters and emerald shiners in another tank, and I can't see him being able to eat any of them. I think you'd be fine with some tadpole madtoms.

#3 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:17 PM

Go with more fish and smaller fish... a school of shiners and a half dozen darters will do just fine with a couple of madtoms... as was mentioned in another thread "not all madtoms are created equal"... speckleds and margineds have been very safe with tankmates in my experience... and the margineds were rather visable (showing up every day at feed time).

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#4 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:19 PM

I've done both with a 75g and I personally would tell you to do the stream/minnow/darter tank. There is an incredible amount to watch when you can have a larger variety of species living together. It is much more active and generally fun to look at in my opinion. If I had two big tanks I would do one of each, but the stream species are more entertaining. Also...don't mix madtoms with pygmy sunfish. And don't put pygmies in a 75g...you would NEVER see them unless maybe you had a monoculture and a few hundred of them.

#5 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:26 PM

So speckled, margineds, and tadpole madtoms are pretty safe? Would orangethroat or rainbow darters be large enough to avoid being eaten?

Also is there any particular shiners that really like to school and be entertaining? I have never seen them in an aquarium environment but remember seeing them roll over and shine against the sunlight when I was a kid at the creek.

#6 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:28 PM

One more question. What would be a good scavenger for a tank like this? Would ghost shrimp become food for the madtoms?

#7 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:30 PM

I have a tadpole madtom, he has eaten very very small fathead minnows, but nothing else. He is currently in a tank with two central mudminnows, and four full grown fatheads. He has been fine with them, they are too big for him to eat. I also have some orangethroat darters and emerald shiners in another tank, and I can't see him being able to eat any of them. I think you'd be fine with some tadpole madtoms.

Any pics on this forum? Would love to see that tank.

#8 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:30 PM

Just another thought...
You could always have a little bit of both. Go for only a few of the small or mid-sized Lepomis (longear, dollar, bantam, o-spot, spotted/redspotted), and have a school or two of larger cyprinids (large Cyprinella, or even creek chubsuckers), and if room, larger darters like logperch.

#9 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:35 PM

Just another thought...
You could always have a little bit of both. Go for only a few of the small or mid-sized Lepomis (longear, dollar, bantam, o-spot, spotted/redspotted), and have a school or two of larger cyprinids (large Cyprinella, or even creek chubsuckers), and if room, larger darters like logperch.

Can't go wrong listening to a guy named uncle willie! lol. What cat would go good in that tank? I am figuring all of those are 5-7 inch fish. Can't think of a cat that fits those parameters. Madtoms would be too small and bullheads too big. Definitely feeling that idea though.

Edited by lozgod, 31 August 2009 - 09:35 PM.

#10 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:45 PM

Besides Cyprinella, check out the various Luxilus species which can be fairly large, active and do well in aquaria. They're not as big a threat to other inhabitants as creek chubs. Also, don't underestimate the predatory nature of even small sunfish like orangespots. If it fits in their mouth they'll eat it.

#11 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

One more question. What would be a good scavenger for a tank like this? Would ghost shrimp become food for the madtoms?

Yes, madtoms will eat them... actually, even a larger darter will attack and eat a ghost shrimp.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#12 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:51 PM

So speckled, margineds, and tadpole madtoms are pretty safe? Would orangethroat or rainbow darters be large enough to avoid being eaten?

Also is there any particular shiners that really like to school and be entertaining? I have never seen them in an aquarium environment but remember seeing them roll over and shine against the sunlight when I was a kid at the creek.

Lots of Notropis shiners would do just what you are looking for... rainbow shiners are great looking and school very nicely... but you probably have a local Notropis htat would act similarly.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#13 Guest_stuber2_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:51 PM

Any pics on this forum? Would love to see that tank.

I will try to get some pics tomorrow, lights are out for tonight.

As far as shiners, I like the emerald shiners, they are easy to keep, and I think they look cool. I'm getting some spotfins this week, I think they would be good as well. My madtom wouldn't be able to eat my orangethroats, so you would be fine with them.

#14 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:24 PM

So speckled, margineds, and tadpole madtoms are pretty safe? Would orangethroat or rainbow darters be large enough to avoid being eaten?...

I keep Rainbow Darters with my Tadpole Madtoms. Never any problems.

...I am figuring all of those are 5-7 inch fish. Can't think of a cat that fits those parameters. Madtoms would be too small and bullheads too big. Definitely feeling that idea though.

Stonecats (Noturus flavus) fit in that size range. Maximum size is a foot in length. I don't have any of these in-stock, but can get some. I sell them for $7.99 each or 2 for $15.00. Shoot me a PM if interested.

I will try to get some pics tomorrow, lights are out for tonight.

As far as shiners, I like the emerald shiners, they are easy to keep, and I think they look cool. I'm getting some spotfins this week, I think they would be good as well. My madtom wouldn't be able to eat my orangethroats, so you would be fine with them.

Bill,

Glad to see you found your way to the forum! I think you're going to like it here! In case you haven't checked your email, your shiners are on their way to you. You should have them by later this week. I hope you enjoy them! Again, welcome to the forum!

Brian

#15 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:32 PM

I wanted to go collecting but I looked in the MD database (which is amazingly helpful for collectors, tells you what species are in exactly what creek, river, etc.) and to make a diverse aquarium I would have to travel the state so I will probably just purchase from Sachs, BT, and Johans.

How would this sound?

Fish:
10 Mountain Red Belly Dace
8 Sailfin Shiners
6 Rainbow Darters
2 Tadpole Madtoms

Plants:
Vallisneria americana
Java Moss
Java Fern
Cryptocoryne wendtii

Nice centerpiece of driftwood

Live sand (from local creek/river) covered by Eco-Complete.

2 Powerheads with sponge filters attached.

CO2 set up and lights undecided yet.

#16 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:35 PM

I keep Rainbow Darters with my Tadpole Madtoms. Never any problems.

Stonecats (Noturus flavus) fit in that size range. Maximum size is a foot in length. I don't have any of these in-stock, but can get some. I sell them for $7.99 each or 2 for $15.00. Shoot me a PM if interested.

Bill,

Glad to see you found your way to the forum! I think you're going to like it here! In case you haven't checked your email, your shiners are on their way to you. You should have them by later this week. I hope you enjoy them! Again, welcome to the forum!

Brian

You got a PM coming.

#17 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:40 PM

Sounds like a good plan! I would like to suggest, if you don't want to do CO₂, give Flourish Excel by Seachem a try. I use it in most of my tanks because the darters like good water circulation. The extra circulation would drive off CO₂ if I used it. The Excel resides in the water and is not driven-off. The down side is that you have to dose daily, but that's not a really big deal if you do it with your feedings. Also, you want to have adequate lighting, or you will fertilize with little results. You can get Excel rather reasonably from Drs. Foster & Smith (http://www.drsfostersmith.com).

Brian

#18 Guest_stuber2_*

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:41 PM

I keep Rainbow Darters with my Tadpole Madtoms. Never any problems.

Stonecats (Noturus flavus) fit in that size range. Maximum size is a foot in length. I don't have any of these in-stock, but can get some. I sell them for $7.99 each or 2 for $15.00. Shoot me a PM if interested.

Bill,

Glad to see you found your way to the forum! I think you're going to like it here! In case you haven't checked your email, your shiners are on their way to you. You should have them by later this week. I hope you enjoy them! Again, welcome to the forum!

Brian

Thanks Brian, I have been reading this forum for a while, and got a lot of info and some great ideas. This is a great resource for anyone with a native tank.