ok. I am doing my first planted aquarium. I have been going to work on 4-5 hours sleep because I can not stop researching various aspects of the planted aquarium. I have only been educating myself for about a week but it has been pretty intensive.
Right now I am looking at sand as the top of a 2 or 3 layered substrate. I like the sand as the top layer because at how well it will hold a bio-film vs. gravel.
Second layer would be Laterite for its nutrient content and the bottom layer would be clay. Clay for the different nutrients it carries.
Increasing cation exchange capacity is the challenge I am posing for the sand as the top layer. One thought is to create an ecosystem in the sand or a "live sand". Aquatic worms and other invertebrates that live in the substrate.
They would be pretty safe from predators depending on the livestock in the aquarium. No suckers, tadpoles, etc.
Would collecting the sand from an actual stream benefit due to its likeliness to have critters in it already?
*Also I am a total newb to this so please feel free to criticize any ideas I come up with but if you do please explain why or how it wouldn't work so that I can learn more.*
Advanced Substrate Discussion
Started by
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, Sep 01 2009 11:34 AM
23 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 12:41 PM
You might find some useful advice in a similar thread I posted a while back: http://forum.nanfa.o...__1
I really think a lot of the "high tech" planted tanks are overcomplicated for the sake of overcomplication. If you're in it for the gadgets and constant fussing with parameters, that's fine, but you can have an attractive planted tank without all the bother.
I really think a lot of the "high tech" planted tanks are overcomplicated for the sake of overcomplication. If you're in it for the gadgets and constant fussing with parameters, that's fine, but you can have an attractive planted tank without all the bother.
#3
Guest_lozgod_*
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:01 PM
Awesome thread. Just read through it. Haven't found anything on having living worms, etc. in the substrate yet. Looking for thoughts on that. Also thoughts on using sand from a creek/river vs. buying it. Thoughts? Anyone?
#4
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:16 PM
My big tank with deep substrate had a thriving population of lumbriculid worms- dozens per square inch- when sunfish were the only tank inhabitants. They were annoyingly good at moving silt to the top of my gravel. I vacuumed most of the silt out (and probably most of the worms with it) and added some cyprinids, who keep the rest in check. I'd say your chances of getting worms established are pretty good, but your chances of having them maintain sufficient abundance to be a significant food source are small. You might try a second tank to raise them in. Same goes for scuds, daphnids, etc.; the fish just won't let them build up to high levels in the tank. It might be different in a tank with a lighter stocking of fish.
I used creek gravel, among other things, in my big tank. I gave it a quick rinse to get out coarse organic debris, but didn't try to sterilize it. I saw numerous benthic inverts in the tank for some time afterwards, and I suspect many microbes were introduced as well. I say go for it, so long as it comes from an unpolluted source.
I used creek gravel, among other things, in my big tank. I gave it a quick rinse to get out coarse organic debris, but didn't try to sterilize it. I saw numerous benthic inverts in the tank for some time afterwards, and I suspect many microbes were introduced as well. I say go for it, so long as it comes from an unpolluted source.
#5
Guest_lozgod_*
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:34 PM
I don't want them to be eaten up. I want them to live and do their function in the substrate is my point. Did you put them there or did they show up?
#6
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:24 PM
Read this, if you haven't already run across it.
System Design for the Ultimate Native Fish Aquarium
Sand, Peat and Fired Clay Substrate
System Design for the Ultimate Native Fish Aquarium
Sand, Peat and Fired Clay Substrate
Edited by schambers, 01 September 2009 - 04:25 PM.
#7
Guest_UncleWillie_*
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:46 PM
I just want to throw something in here really quick about layering you substrates. If you have gravel and sand, sand will always eventually work its way down - mixing you subtrates and eventually the sand will reach the bottom. Not that that mixing substrates is bad (mine are mixed)just wanted to let you know that it wont stay on tp for long.
#8
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:50 PM
I don't want them to be eaten up. I want them to live and do their function in the substrate is my point. Did you put them there or did they show up?
They just showed up. Do you want them to break down waste more rapidly, or to mix the substrate, or something else? I don't believe they would have a significant effect on the health of your fish and plants in any case.
#9
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:03 PM
Farmertodds link is awesome. I'll check out the other one as well.Read this, if you haven't already run across it.
System Design for the Ultimate Native Fish Aquarium
Sand, Peat and Fired Clay Substrate
What I am trying to accomplish is a true live sand without introducing parasites and avoid fish like suckers that will go in to the substrate finding my substrate organisms. I know some will be picked off by darters and madtoms but I think that would be more incidental vs a constant hunt for them.
#10
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:13 PM
My thinking was they would do both, keep the substrate aerated and break waste down more efficiently. I would think it would help the overall system.They just showed up. Do you want them to break down waste more rapidly, or to mix the substrate, or something else? I don't believe they would have a significant effect on the health of your fish and plants in any case.
#11
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:42 PM
My thinking was they would do both, keep the substrate aerated and break waste down more efficiently. I would think it would help the overall system.
Bacteria will do that for you. Even if you buy your substrate, bacteria will show up although it never hurts to inoculate your store-bought substrate with a cup full of substrate from your local stream. Bacteria and plants will break down waste and use that as an energy source.
You will have other benthic and sub-surface organisms appearing in your substrate but there is no insurance policy on them not being eaten. You are over-thinking the process, you do not need other organisms to aerate the substrate and breakdown wastes, if you have organisms that you want to live in your substrate (like various freshwater oligochaetes) then inoculate the substrate with them and let nature take its course. Trust me, if you have fish that are eating and producing waste, good substrate and filter you will have plenty of organisms to aerate the substrate and breakdown wastes.
Good luck!
Blake
#12
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:52 PM
I do like the thinking here, if for no other reason, so I do not have to trek buckets of sand from a stream. Might go with the play sand Farmertodd used and mix in some natural sand.Bacteria will do that for you. Even if you buy your substrate, bacteria will show up although it never hurts to inoculate your store-bought substrate with a cup full of substrate from your local stream. Bacteria and plants will break down waste and use that as an energy source.
You will have other benthic and sub-surface organisms appearing in your substrate but there is no insurance policy on them not being eaten. You are over-thinking the process, you do not need other organisms to aerate the substrate and breakdown wastes, if you have organisms that you want to live in your substrate (like various freshwater oligochaetes) then inoculate the substrate with them and let nature take its course. Trust me, if you have fish that are eating and producing waste, good substrate and filter you will have plenty of organisms to aerate the substrate and breakdown wastes.
Good luck!
Blake
Man I am getting excited about this tank. I planned on getting a new 1080p TV before putting the money in to this tank but the 1080p might get put off. lol. If I get adventurous and go collect the fish and plants myself I could do both I guess. Moneywise I am not spending much. Nixing the CO2. Came to realize that's more for water gardens as opposed to a fish tank with plants. No CO2, no need for exotic lighting. Only thing I have to pay for is a new powerhead, some PVC, substrate, and minnow traps, wading boots, and a dip net if I do my own collecting.
Problem for me and collecting is time and lack of confidence due to lack of experience. Haven't collected fish from the wild in about 22-23 years. I get one day a week off and it is usually spent with family or yard work.
#13
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 06:17 PM
I agree with Blake. Benthic inverts are cool and all, but microbes do the job pretty well on their own. Besides, substrate aeration is not really necessary. The tropical hobbyist's fear of "anoxic gas bubbles" is one of those odd bugbears in the hobby that has little basis in experience.
As far as inverts to introduce, I suggest snails as animals likely to survive in large enough numbers to have a real impact. They're great at breaking down plant detritus and uneaten fish food so that the bacteria in the substrate and filter can more effectively finish them off, and help with mild nuisance algae. Which snail species you can keep will depend on your fish stock; some darters are good snail killers but large operculate snails such as some viviparids and pleurocerids should be relatively invulnerable.
Can't help with time, but as for confidence, netting with a more experienced person pays off big. You'll learn more about netting technique and IDing in a single outing than you could in weeks of reading and netting on your own. There are several NANFAns in your area; you can check out the Northeast section to look for trips being organized or put up a request for netting partners.
As far as inverts to introduce, I suggest snails as animals likely to survive in large enough numbers to have a real impact. They're great at breaking down plant detritus and uneaten fish food so that the bacteria in the substrate and filter can more effectively finish them off, and help with mild nuisance algae. Which snail species you can keep will depend on your fish stock; some darters are good snail killers but large operculate snails such as some viviparids and pleurocerids should be relatively invulnerable.
Can't help with time, but as for confidence, netting with a more experienced person pays off big. You'll learn more about netting technique and IDing in a single outing than you could in weeks of reading and netting on your own. There are several NANFAns in your area; you can check out the Northeast section to look for trips being organized or put up a request for netting partners.
#14
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:39 PM
I do like the thinking here, if for no other reason, so I do not have to trek buckets of sand from a stream. Might go with the play sand Farmertodd used and mix in some natural sand.
You should consider using dirt from your backyard as the clay layer... this natural soil layer is great for your plants and is full of the natural microbes that you are looking for... read Diana Walsted's book... I'm convinced it is the way to go...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#15
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Posted 02 September 2009 - 03:38 AM
The previous poster mentioned Diana Walstad, but I don't know if her method was discussed earlier in the thread. Info about Diana Walstad's method can be found here. Her book, 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium - A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist', can be found on Amazon here. Great book! I'm enjoying my copy.
Brian
Brian
#16
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Posted 08 September 2009 - 01:36 AM
The previous poster mentioned Diana Walstad, but I don't know if her method was discussed earlier in the thread. Info about Diana Walstad's method can be found here. Her book, 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium - A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist', can be found on Amazon here. Great book! I'm enjoying my copy.
Brian
If you have not read this book then pick it up and read it....It is loaded with tons of great information. I picked up mine at the use book store in the Library for a buck and a half.....
#17
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Posted 08 September 2009 - 01:19 PM
I just found this thread and scrolled through the prior entries. Regarding benthic animals to stir up the substrate, I'm thinking that blackworms would do well. They do a good job of consuming organic matter, and, if they come out of the substrate and get eaten, they're easy enough to replace.
If you have not read this book then pick it up and read it....It is loaded with tons of great information. I picked up mine at the use book store in the Library for a buck and a half.....
#18
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Posted 13 September 2009 - 03:41 PM
Thanks for your patience Loz. I've been on the road and sick for the last two weeks and I've just been able to get back to this now.
A couple quick thoughts, now that I'm back in one piece... I may synthesize this a little more later. Really, I need to do an update in AC, and I've considered so for this winter's list of priorities.
Using live substrates from a stream can be your success or your failure. I've had introductions where I had damselflies and midges emerge as adults months after introduction. Having sphaerid clams has proven a great substrate stirrer and filter, but you may want to examine your state's laws on possession of bivalves, and any time I treat the tank with salt, I would loose all pea clams (corbicula tolerated it). I imagine these losses are replicated across taxa, so in essence, in the time when you need that support staff the most, you just wiped them out with the treatment, and placed more stress on the system. Others have had some WEIRD stuff show up too. I'm not entirely convinced they were from substrate introductions (I think some were exotics that came in on plants), but that doesn't mean they any less worrisome or annoying.
Clay. I now have a difference in opinion with a blanket statement about clay from the back yard. Yes, if you have an iron and cation rich clay in your back yard, you should TOTALLY use it. Many others of us are not as lucky. I've found clays in the upper midwest (derived from tills) to be about useless, while clays formed in lacustrine systems to work amazingly well. I think some of the clays available on the internet for pottery are going to be more consistent... Those are found in some of the links from the TRAC thread on using the peat and fired clays.
Sand. You want to make sure you have a fairly large grained sand that you're using. I have NEVER had a problem with Quickcrete Playsand. I have had all sorts of trouble with less rinsed (rinsed either geologically or mechanically) sands, and I know others have as well. I hope to quantify this a little bit better. Basically, if you put it in a bucket and it clouds up the water where you can't see it, don't use it. It'll be your undoing.
That's about all for now. We'll see what questions rise from that.
Todd
A couple quick thoughts, now that I'm back in one piece... I may synthesize this a little more later. Really, I need to do an update in AC, and I've considered so for this winter's list of priorities.
Using live substrates from a stream can be your success or your failure. I've had introductions where I had damselflies and midges emerge as adults months after introduction. Having sphaerid clams has proven a great substrate stirrer and filter, but you may want to examine your state's laws on possession of bivalves, and any time I treat the tank with salt, I would loose all pea clams (corbicula tolerated it). I imagine these losses are replicated across taxa, so in essence, in the time when you need that support staff the most, you just wiped them out with the treatment, and placed more stress on the system. Others have had some WEIRD stuff show up too. I'm not entirely convinced they were from substrate introductions (I think some were exotics that came in on plants), but that doesn't mean they any less worrisome or annoying.
Clay. I now have a difference in opinion with a blanket statement about clay from the back yard. Yes, if you have an iron and cation rich clay in your back yard, you should TOTALLY use it. Many others of us are not as lucky. I've found clays in the upper midwest (derived from tills) to be about useless, while clays formed in lacustrine systems to work amazingly well. I think some of the clays available on the internet for pottery are going to be more consistent... Those are found in some of the links from the TRAC thread on using the peat and fired clays.
Sand. You want to make sure you have a fairly large grained sand that you're using. I have NEVER had a problem with Quickcrete Playsand. I have had all sorts of trouble with less rinsed (rinsed either geologically or mechanically) sands, and I know others have as well. I hope to quantify this a little bit better. Basically, if you put it in a bucket and it clouds up the water where you can't see it, don't use it. It'll be your undoing.
That's about all for now. We'll see what questions rise from that.
Todd
#19
Guest_lozgod_*
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Posted 13 September 2009 - 10:41 PM
Thanks for the reply Todd along with everyone else. Since the original post I did away with the clay as a part of my substrate. Going to combine soil and playsand with a few scoops of creek sand. Going with native plants and about 2.5 watts per gallon for lighting. Cool lighting and full spectrum.
I am going to run with the River Tank Manifold found on the Loaches site ( http://www.loaches.c...manifold-design ). Stacking some rocks from the front pumps to about 5-6 inches out then beyond the riffle going with the following for plants:
Baby Tears
Ludwiga
Hornwort
Vall Americana and
Elodea
Picking up everything I need and do not have yet Thursday. Sunday is the day I begin set-up.
Also I am doing away with the obsession I had for living sand and trying to stock the substrate, but I still need something to dig and keep it active to avoid anaerobic bacteria forming and potentially creating lethal by-products. Suggestions anyone?
I am going to run with the River Tank Manifold found on the Loaches site ( http://www.loaches.c...manifold-design ). Stacking some rocks from the front pumps to about 5-6 inches out then beyond the riffle going with the following for plants:
Baby Tears
Ludwiga
Hornwort
Vall Americana and
Elodea
Picking up everything I need and do not have yet Thursday. Sunday is the day I begin set-up.
Also I am doing away with the obsession I had for living sand and trying to stock the substrate, but I still need something to dig and keep it active to avoid anaerobic bacteria forming and potentially creating lethal by-products. Suggestions anyone?
#20
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Posted 13 September 2009 - 10:44 PM
Missed this post before posting my previous one. ave you ever used blackworms? My concern is a die off and polluting the water. Would love to use them if they are safe to use.I just found this thread and scrolled through the prior entries. Regarding benthic animals to stir up the substrate, I'm thinking that blackworms would do well. They do a good job of consuming organic matter, and, if they come out of the substrate and get eaten, they're easy enough to replace.
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