I think most people on here are aware of the basics of my tank but I will reiterate.

Soil substrate (unfertilized). Substrate very alive and breathing. Lots of CO2 bubbles.

Heavily planted - elodea, java moss, java fern, vals, frogbit, ludwiga repens, hornwort, swords, baby's tears, duckweed, 2 other bunched unknown rooted plants. All plants are flourishing. Flourishing could be an understatement. All plants with runners have multiple runners, cropping valls everyday, ludwiga repens is red and growing like crazy.

Water breathing snails and all invertebrates doing well.

Fish seem healthy except 2 dace. No loss of fish in weeks. Lost 5 to O2 depletion overnight and 2 to unknown causes. 2 dace don't seem active in water column. One sits on bottom and one wedges itself between filter intake and aquarium glass, but darters, larger dace, white sucker, and white cloud minnows seem healthy and active.

Water cloudy for last 72 hours. Cloudiness correlates with significant nitrite readings as well as nitrate reasons so assuming it is a bacteria bloom.

The question I have is, is it normal to have HIGH ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings at the same time? Everything I can find about the break in period says I should expect a peak in ammonia readings then a drop to near zero followed by nitrite readins then a similar event in relation to nitrites and nitrates. I however have high readings on all 3.

Anyone have similar experiences or a possible explanation? I am using zeolite to try to control ammonia but it will not go away. I can't figure it out.

Edited by lozgod, 24 October 2009 - 08:36 PM.

How much is high exactly?

No, it isn't what most people think of as normal, but the normal scenario is to drop some fish or bottled ammonia in a tank and wait for the three nitrifying bacteria that happened to be present in the tank to explode into a billion. When you do it that way, bacteria that would process nitrite are initially starved and their population doesn't begin to grow until a couple weeks later when the population of the first colony is large enough to have produced a significant nitrite concentration.

However, in a tank seeded with live filter media, you will see nitrate from the first because you have nitrite immediately and you started with a large enough population of Nitrobacter to start processing it. It makes sense to me that having started with soil you would see simultaneous production of nitrite and nitrate. Continuing presence of nitrite over time is not expected, but it really just means that nitrite production is still outstripping consumption.

Change enough water to save your fish, and the spikes should pass in a few days.

Forgot to add. Tank has had fish since around Sept. 15th.

Pre water change high was:
3.0ppm nitrite
4.0ppm ammonia

Forgot to log nitrates.

For a while I was getting nothing but ammonia readings. Tried using products to convert it to ammonium but dicontinued about 3 weeks ago.

Since then, not only am i seeded by soil, but also added established gravel, established filter material, freshwater bio-zyme and added zeolite to my filter and ammonia is still ridiculously high. Not to mention I am heavily planted with both rooted and floating plants and several are fast growing.

Next step is cut back feeding to EOD I guess.

Edited by lozgod, 25 October 2009 - 12:46 AM.

Sounds like a fish died in there about three and a half days ago, someplace well hidden.

If it were my tank, at this point, I would do -nothing- except back away and let it run for at least a month, or better yet, two - without adding any more instant "cure-in-the-box" items. Bacteria blooms and test readings be damned.

Instead of letting the tank naturally reach biological stability, over the past month it sounds like you've been trying to control the the tank's balancing act. Dirt base substrate planted tanks (aka Walstad tanks) -should- initially run through the ammonia cycle very, very quickly, but, that doesn't mean they will reach a stable equilibrium quickly. For the first couple months, all the biological processes are still rather slowly adapting to each other to run at a mutually beneficial pace. When a major outside influence is introduced (say a big dose of chemicals, new substrate layer, a bucket of zeolite, etc.), things go instantly out of control, and the balancing process essentially starts from scratch, again.

The absolute best thing you can do to help a naturally planted tank is... nothing!

Buy a small automatic feeder, set it to feed the minimum.
Set the light timer for a 10 hours on, 14 off cycle.
Pack all you test kits in a box and put them in the attic until well after Christmas.
Remove the zeolite from your canister filter and aim the return line so that it flows just under the surface, moderately rippling the water.
Pack your air pump and airstones up with the test kits.
Don't do any water changes, don't add anything except water to replace evaporation loss (or more plants).
Resist the urge to "fix it".

Also, don't get too attached to your current stock of fish. "First fish" in a new tank fall into two categories; the doomed many, and the lucky few. So, scoop out the floaters or nearly-dead when you see them and give them a quick salute/funeral, and flush.

If you must do "something", add more plants. I'd suggest a bunch of water wisteria (hygrophila difformis) stems in the back, corners. While not native, wisteria is cheap, grows very fast, looks great in the background of NPTs, and will do more to polish the water in the long run than the purigen will.
If you need more to do, add duckweed... Duckweed will slow a new, out of control tank down, and you'll have plenty to do, skimming netfull after netfull out of the tank every few weeks. Once things are stable, add half a dozen flagfish to work the duckweed over. They won't get rid of it, but they will slow it down some.

Rick

Edited by rickwrench, 25 October 2009 - 02:54 AM.

If you need more to do, add duckweed... Duckweed will slow a new, out of control tank down, and you'll have plenty to do, skimming netfull after netfull out of the tank every few weeks. Once things are stable, add half a dozen flagfish to work the duckweed over. They won't get rid of it, but they will slow it down some.

Rick

I had out of control duckweed in my tank for a while. It's very annoying, But eventually my shiners (i assume it was them as at the time the tank only had shiners, an algea eater, and a rock bass) started to eat it and now I have none.

I actually vowed to put the test kit away weeks ago but easier said than done. Just tested again. Ammonia is a lot lower. Actually down between .25 and .5. Looks like it is progressing in the right direction at the moment.

Nitrites are at 2.0ppm but that's expected.

Nitrates are 20ppm.

What appeared to be cloudy in the tank looked green in the bucket when I did the water change. So I am leaving the light off for a few days to see if it clears.

I admit to going too far with intervention but my intentions were good.

I have read that water breathing snails are a good barometer in regards to water quality and mine are not retreating to the surface at all.

ok. Update. Turned lights off for a couple days to kill green water. It also killed all of my frogbit. Water ph dropped to undetectable levels. Good news is it was remedied with a water change and my tank appears to be cycled finally. So all is good. Time to stop stressing and enjoy my tank.

It also killed all of my frogbit.

If you want some more, I have lots.

If you want some more, I have lots.

There were a couple survivors. I will see how they do. If I need some more I will definitely get some from you. That stuff grows like crazy so I am going to see how the few survivors make out.

Just had a thought. Could the CO2 from the substrate be lowering the PH? It is bubbling like crazy. I am pretty confident in the dead frogbit thesis because all the sponges were saturated in decayed plant material. Just a thought though.

If you want some more, I have lots.

The ones I've gotten from you have become monsters. Most of the leaves are almost the size of half dollars now. The turtles have been enjoying the overgrowth as well.

The CO2 from the substrate might be a slight contributing factor, but it is more likely the bacteria consuming oxygen as they are being overworked to cause all of the excess organic matter(plants) to decay.

I was tossing my extra to the koi but they stopped eating them. I figure if nothing else, they'll make good compost.

Did you put any crushed coral or similar substance in your soil? My big tank's pH dropped down to like 6.2 (and it's in the high 7's out of the tap) after the soil had been doing it's thing for a year. I added a couple of cups of crushed coral that the trumpet snails plowed into the substrate and that buffered it back up to neutral eventually.

I was tossing my extra to the koi but they stopped eating them. I figure if nothing else, they'll make good compost.

Did you put any crushed coral or similar substance in your soil? My big tank's pH dropped down to like 6.2 (and it's in the high 7's out of the tap) after the soil had been doing it's thing for a year. I added a couple of cups of crushed coral that the trumpet snails plowed into the substrate and that buffered it back up to neutral eventually.

No I didn't and now I am racking my brain on how to add it without creating a muddy mess. Suggestions?

What if I put it in a mesh bag and put the bag in the Fluval Canister? Would the flow dissolve it too quickly, and would the plants benefit from the calcium with it in the water column vs. the substrate?

The media bag in the filter is a pretty common method, and it should work fine. You may start with a handful at first and increase the amount later so that the levels don't rise too quickly if they are currently very low. You may need to replace it from time to time, but it should last quite a while.