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gues the knowns


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#1 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 11:37 AM

Can you guess what these are?

Attached File  allotriploid BG2 x RB.JPG   3.42MB   6 downloads

Attached File  TRIHYBRID PS x RE X BG 1.JPG   3.61MB   5 downloads

Attached File  TRIHYBRID PS x RE X BG 2.JPG   3.79MB   4 downloads

Edited by centrarchid, 04 November 2009 - 11:55 AM.


#2 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 11:52 AM

The picture doesn't seem to display.

#3 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 12:11 PM

My guesses:

green x longear

p-seed x longear

bluegill x longear

#4 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 12:16 PM

My guesses:

green x longear

p-seed x longear

bluegill x longear


Blugill (northern) a component of all.


Actually only two hybrids shown. Latter two repressent a hyper-variable brood / swarm.

#5 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 12:21 PM

the first looks like a redbreast.

As for the second and third, I am not sure, they have a red tinged opercular tab like a pumpkinseed but their coloration seems off. Of them the second seems most pumpkinseed like with the spotting. (though I have seen pumpkinseed with banding instead of spotting and some with no real bodilly markings so it is tough to tell given how variable the species is, that or I've called hybrids with the red tinged tab pumpkinseed too).

#6 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 12:29 PM

Top fish with rebreast but not 50%.

Latter two have pumpkinseed but also something else which I can not see even when I know it is there.

#7 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 12:45 PM

Hmmm... these are tough. How about:

1) Bluegill x Redbreast
2 and 3) Bluegill x Redear x Pumpkinseed

Edited by gerald, 04 November 2009 - 01:03 PM.


#8 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 01:03 PM

Them's bream!

Is there some green in the first fish?

#9 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 03:07 PM

Hmmm... these are tough. How about:

1) Bluegill x Redbreast
2 and 3) Bluegill x Redear x Pumpkinseed


Gerald,

You may have cheated.

The answer for first fish is allotriploid 2/3 bluegill + 1/3 redbreast. Bluegill egg fertilized by redbreast sperm with resulting zygote pressure shocked two minutes post-fertilization (ploidy not verified but previous efforts give 100% triploid). The redbreast characteristics are more apparent than I thought they should be.

The latter two fish are a trihybrid that is 1/4 redear + 1/4 pumpkinseed + 2/4 northern bluegill. A female redear was crossed with male pumpkinseed yeilding a fertile F1 hybrid. A female F1 hybrid was then mated to a northern bluegill male. Morphologically, young clearly show bluegill and pumpkinseed inputs but redear not obvious. Fish also extremely variable.


Jim

#10 Guest_CATfishTONY_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:27 PM

Gerald,

You may have cheated.

The answer for first fish is allotriploid 2/3 bluegill + 1/3 redbreast. Bluegill egg fertilized by redbreast sperm with resulting zygote pressure shocked two minutes post-fertilization (ploidy not verified but previous efforts give 100% triploid). The redbreast characteristics are more apparent than I thought they should be.

The latter two fish are a trihybrid that is 1/4 redear + 1/4 pumpkinseed + 2/4 northern bluegill. A female redear was crossed with male pumpkinseed yeilding a fertile F1 hybrid. A female F1 hybrid was then mated to a northern bluegill male. Morphologically, young clearly show bluegill and pumpkinseed inputs but redear not obvious. Fish also extremely variable.


Jim

JIM, why would one do this?can they get out of there aquaculture area?

#11 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 05:56 PM

Hey, So you don't think I'm really THAT good?? You're right ... a little mouse whispered in my ear.
But i really didn't TRY to cheat; the answers just popped up under my cursor arrow.

BTW a guy here in NC told me he cuts off opercular flaps to hybridize Lepomis. Opercular flaps are apparently the "right guy" vs "wrong guy" signal according to Ken Sholar. Is this what you do, or strip eggs & sperm ?


Gerald,

You may have cheated.

Jim



#12 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 09:18 PM

For some reason my cursor arrow does not bring up file name so I thought all saw same.

I used to do same with opercular tabs based in part on what professor told me which likely from same source. More detailed experimentation with the opercular flaps has shown they are not fool proof when intact and some crosses will not go even when flaps clipped. Other coloration, the dance and scent all play roles. Some crosses we make manually (stripping eggs and sperm). One cross seldom goes if female has choice (female bluegill x male redear) but occurs at low rate when redear male cuckholds neighboring bluegill male.

A while back we did a cool experiment where we put bright red earings on the male bluegill's opercular tabs. They did not stay on long but while they did the wearer enjoyed the ability to drive rivals off their nest.

#13 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 11:48 PM

Ah man centrarchid. This is awesome. I bet those experiments were amazing to watch unfold.
Tell us more, this is so interesting.

#14 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 12:05 AM

The answer for first fish is allotriploid 2/3 bluegill + 1/3 redbreast. Bluegill egg fertilized by redbreast sperm with resulting zygote pressure shocked two minutes post-fertilization (ploidy not verified but previous efforts give 100% triploid). The redbreast characteristics are more apparent than I thought they should be.

The latter two fish are a trihybrid that is 1/4 redear + 1/4 pumpkinseed + 2/4 northern bluegill. A female redear was crossed with male pumpkinseed yeilding a fertile F1 hybrid. A female F1 hybrid was then mated to a northern bluegill male. Morphologically, young clearly show bluegill and pumpkinseed inputs but redear not obvious. Fish also extremely variable.


One word: WHY?

:-k

#15 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:10 AM

A while back we did a cool experiment where we put bright red earings on the male bluegill's opercular tabs. They did not stay on long but while they did the wearer enjoyed the ability to drive rivals off their nest.


This hybridization experimentation is awesome, i hope to see more amazing crosses soon.

Also earings for fish sounds interesting, the first i heard of fish fashion. :)

Did the earrings effect the bluegills mating success any? did the females react as if they were a different species?

Also what hybrids are the easiest to make? will any of the species hybridize very very readilly?

Edited by FirstChAoS, 05 November 2009 - 01:11 AM.


#16 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:02 AM

One word: WHY?

:-k


Best reasoning on past thread concerning domestication. Trying to develope a sterile production population that grows well producing a consistent quality product.

If you can convence me of the merits, then I might be willing to acquire wild broodstock every year or get broodstock from some other drainage / part of country. Will have escapement. Could also get local stock once, domesticate it like done with salmonids and channel catfish, and constantly let usually small numbers of my hatchery selected / purposely selective bred animals out into the watershed.

Some of the funkier stuff serves as training tool for students interested in propogation techniques and hybridization. They get to generate critters of known ancestry that can be compared to putative hybrids someone like yourself is likely to encounter while sampling. Not one word but TEACHING TOOL.

Edited by centrarchid, 05 November 2009 - 10:32 AM.


#17 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:22 AM

This hybridization experimentation is awesome, i hope to see more amazing crosses soon.

Also earings for fish sounds interesting, the first i heard of fish fashion. :)

Did the earrings effect the bluegills mating success any? did the females react as if they were a different species?

Also what hybrids are the easiest to make? will any of the species hybridize very very readilly?


When two or more sunfishes co-occur and one is rare / unable to find mates (refers to female having hard time finding mates) just about anything can happen.

Greens seem to be most inclined to cross but are not indescriminant. Maybe because they are almost always present but sometimes in low abundance. The turbidity theory in my opinion may not prevent accurate ID of spawning partner, but rather make it more difficult to find best which sometimes is same species.

We did not add females to tanks with bluegill males wearing earings as intended because the earings came off to quick. Earings were intended to keep bluegill females from spawning with certain males. We ended up using redear males instead of bluegill males with earings.

In tanks and ponds where you control mating options most crosses will make. A few will not unless but most of those can whe done manually result in viable, sometimes fertile offspring. Easiest cross to me is northern bluegill with coppernose but I suspect such matings occur less than one would expect if mate selection is random. I think northern and coppernose should be considered as different species.

The coolest cross to be made yet will involve the longear from the lower Mobile River drainage with western dollar and redbreast. Student doing this to look a variation in larval morphology as a function of cross direction (who is the mother).

#18 Guest_basssmaster_*

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:50 PM

The coolest cross to be made yet will involve the longear from the lower Mobile River drainage with western dollar and redbreast. Student doing this to look a variation in larval morphology as a function of cross direction (who is the mother).

I think the coolest hybrid will be the Warbuck (Warmouth x dollar) I had some hatch but failed to achieve exodus with the cross, although only a small number was produced at maybe 100 and only 12 hatched...

#19 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 08:53 PM

So what post-zygotic barrier(s) do you think you encounter with the Warbuck cross?

#20 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 07:28 PM

So what post-zygotic barrier(s) do you think you encounter with the Warbuck cross?


Poor water quality management encountered so far.




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