22 replies to this topic

[killier]

my lfs has feeder(wild) guppies and I'm wonder what species are they most likely they look like the delta lyre tails at petsmart but with shorter fins.

Also could someone post a pic of a endlers livebearer

[fundulus]

killier, on Jan 6 2007, 06:46 PM, said:

my lfs has feeder(wild) guppies and I'm wonder what species are they most likely they look like the delta lyre tails at petsmart but with shorter fins.

Also could someone post a pic of a endlers livebearer

All guppies, including Endler's Liverbearer, are in the species Poecilia reticulata. The Endler's are of interest because males are more heavily pigmented than other populations of guppy. The Endler's comes from one small ditch system in Venezuela that was found accidentally by John Endler. If you Google Endler's Livebearer you'll find some shots.

[Brooklamprey]

killier, on Jan 6 2007, 08:46 PM, said:

my lfs has feeder(wild) guppies and I'm wonder what species are they most likely they look like the delta lyre tails at petsmart but with shorter fins.

Also could someone post a pic of a endlers livebearer

Guppies are native to South America not Mexico...
Poecilia wingei (Endlers livebearer) are from Venezuela...
These are representitive examples of the usual hobby fish.
 DSC0001.jpg   32.11K   38 downloads
 Capture_7.jpg   21.36K   52 downloads
 Endler2.jpg   27.8K   42 downloads

fundulus, on Jan 6 2007, 09:15 PM, said:

All guppies, including Endler's Liverbearer, are in the species Poecilia reticulata. The Endler's are of interest because males are more heavily pigmented than other populations of guppy. The Endler's comes from one small ditch system in Venezuela that was found accidentally by John Endler. If you Google Endler's Livebearer you'll find some shots.

Actually the "endlers" has now been given the name Poecilia wingei I have the paper if your interested.

Edit: I flubed the scientific name it is correct now

[fundulus]

Brooklamprey, on Jan 6 2007, 07:24 PM, said:

Guppies are native to South America not Mexico...
Poecilia wingei (Endlers livebearer) are from Venezuela...
These are representitive examples of the usual hobby fish.
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Actually the "endlers" has now been given the name Poecilia wingei I have the paper if your interested.

Edit: I flubed the scientific name it is correct now

Yeah, I'd be curious to see the paper once & for all so I can be better informed in my bitching about it. I predict that it's one of those taxonomic questions that'll be kicked around for a while, even if I respect Breden who seems to support this designation. Endler's are perfectly happy to produce viable offspring with reticulata populations. Maybe I'm being a weenie and I'm holding out for genetic sequence data. Anyway, my email is fundulus at hotmail . com. And thanks...

[Brooklamprey]

fundulus, on Jan 6 2007, 10:47 PM, said:

Yeah, I'd be curious to see the paper once & for all so I can be better informed in my bitching about it. I predict that it's one of those taxonomic questions that'll be kicked around for a while, even if I respect Breden who seems to support this designation. Endler's are perfectly happy to produce viable offspring with reticulata populations. Maybe I'm being a weenie and I'm holding out for genetic sequence data. Anyway, my email is fundulus at hotmail . com. And thanks...

I hope this settles it but I think you are right it may be kicked around for awile. given the info, however, I'm not seeing much to dispute. The biggest question that remains is the identity of the fish in captivity and the exact level of hybrids in the Laguna de patos area..

This is online openly at http://endlersr.us/ so I see no restriction to posting it..
I do question the above site though on many of their ideas and concepts about these fish.

Attached Files

•  Endlerspart1.pdf   6.2MB   54 downloads
•  Endlerspart2.pdf   4.01MB   22 downloads

[haruspicator]

That endlers in the middle photo, what 'variety' is that?  I imagine names for endlers is subjective.

[Brooklamprey]

Quote

That endlers in the middle photo, what 'variety' is that? I imagine names for endlers is subjective.

'Laguna de patos'..same variety fish in all pics actually..They are very variable in color and pattern.

[sandtiger]

Interesting that this has come up. This months issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist has an article by Ted Coletti on the Endler's Livebearer. The author does not believe the Endler's should be given species status.

[Brooklamprey]

sandtiger, on Jul 29 2007, 11:48 AM, said:

Interesting that this has come up. This months issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist has an article by Ted Coletti on the Endler's Livebearer. The author does not believe the Endler's should be given species status.

There is still a slow simmering debate raging over this issue...fact is though, the species status for the fish is generally accepted in the scientific community. It seems hobbyists have the biggest problem with it.

[fundulus]

I've been of two minds about the species status of Endler's. But the more I think about it, the better separate species status looks. I have one article documenting the strong preference of female Endlers' for male Endler's when given a choice in controlled laboratory experiments. The strength of this sexual selection supports species status by apparent reproductive isolation, even though Endler's is still mutually interfertile with other "guppies". I've seen since I was in 7th grade that hobbyists hate the recognition of new species, I don't expect that to end anytime soon....

[menschenjaeger]

fundulus, on Jul 29 2007, 01:45 PM, said:

I've been of two minds about the species status of Endler's. But the more I think about it, the better separate species status looks. I have one article documenting the strong preference of female Endlers' for male Endler's when given a choice in controlled laboratory experiments. The strength of this sexual selection supports species status by apparent reproductive isolation, even though Endler's is still mutually interfertile with other "guppies". I've seen since I was in 7th grade that hobbyists hate the recognition of new species, I don't expect that to end anytime soon....

The real issue is whether or not Endler's is the Campoma (sp?) guppy.  Considering that Endler himself found guppies and Endler's together in Laguna de los Patos during his visit, and that Armando Pou found no guppies there during his visit 20 or so years later, it is a certainty that Endler's is a hybrid with P. reticulata as one parent.  The other species seems to be the Campoma guppy, but until we see some genetic analysis...?  The assertion by some breeders that "their" Endler's contain no guppy blood seems more like religious fervor than supportable fact.

I had a colony of "pure" Endler's from the 1998 collection for a while and they occasionally threw offspring that were virtually indistinguishable from P. reticulata.  John Endler (pers. comm.) has said that the recently-collected Endler's are VERY different in appearance from the ones he found.  I believe he mentions, on that "other site" (that site, btw, while being a wealth of information, also seems to exist larelgy as an advertisement for fish from two breeders - let the reader beware) that there were no fish exhibiting the "snakeskin" pattern to be found during his visit, and that pattern is actually a classic phenotype of guppies from that region.  Snakeskin Endler's were regularly found during the recent collections.  

I would very much like to see some true, unadulterated Campoma guppies, and my guess is, after the dust clears is that Endler's livebearer is actually a case of incipient speciation of a hybrid.  

But they're great-looking fish and darn near bulletproof.

[illustrator]

to my utter surprise, I recently learned that there is a small strain of pure, unhybridised campoma-guppies in Europe. I even got some (totally unexpected and took my breath away ...). But I doupt if this will be of any help because the ones I saw (and now have) have all the same phenotype while the original description tells that there's an infinite variation. Guess that happens when a small group of fish is inbred for a couple of generations. They are definately the real thing though (and not imported by the above mentioned breeders). I don't have photographs yet.

Edited by illustrator, 09 September 2009 - 12:59 PM.

[Burbot]

illustrator, on 09 September 2009 - 12:58 PM, said:

to my utter surprise, I recently learned that there is a small strain of pure, unhybridised campoma-guppies in Europe. I even got some (totally unexpected and took my breath away ...). But I doupt if this will be of any help because the ones I saw (and now have) have all the same phenotype while the original description tells that there's an infinite variation. Guess that happens when a small group of fish is inbred for a couple of generations. They are definately the real thing though (and not imported by the above mentioned breeders). I don't have photographs yet.

wow this thread was only dead 2 years!

Im kidding you, welcome to the forum.

[theK]

i have a hard time accepting endlers as anything else but feeder guppies but i guess that's just because i have yet to be able to compare them side by side with my own two eyes up close... comparing photos just don't work for me with those fish cuz they look the same to me

[CATfishTONY]

Burbot, on 09 September 2009 - 05:15 PM, said:

wow this thread was only dead 2 years!

Im kidding you, welcome to the forum.

has there been a definitive answer, and a new genetic species named?

[Mysteryman]

My personal opinion, not that it's worth anything of course, is that Endler's are simply an isolated tribe of guppies. Make that a collection of such isolated tribes, since there are different kinds of Endler's. At any rate, I will say this about them: Their colors are considerably more intense than those found in normal guppies, even if those colors are relegated to only a few small areas instead of spread all over the body. My prediction is that someday we will see domesticated forms of Endler's which resemble the modern domesticated guppies, created via the same methods over time. My hope is that these colors will not fade in the process, resulting in a new sort of super-intensely colored fish resembling a fancy guppy on crack.
I guess we'll see. It's kind of exciting, really, starting all over again like this, turning a wild 'feeder" into something wonderful.

[critterguy]

To add to this, has anyone ever tried breeding a cold/abuse tolerant strain of guppies?(I am thinking "the ultimate feeder guppy")

Edited by critterguy, 11 November 2009 - 05:52 AM.

[gzeiger]

Should be easy to do... just keep them in an unheated garage through a Wisconsin winter, and abuse them twice a week, and see if you get any fry.

[Michael Wolfe]

critterguy, on 11 November 2009 - 05:52 AM, said:

To add to this, has anyone ever tried breeding a cold/abuse tolerant strain of guppies?(I am thinking "the ultimate feeder guppy")

They all died outside in Georgia... just a first freeze of the top 16th of an inch of ice on the above ground pond...

[gzeiger]

Obviously you hadn't been abusing them enough over the summer to get them ready.