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Orangethroat ID

Started by Guest_jblaylock_* , Nov 13 2009 08:16 AM

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10 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 08:16 AM

Anybody want to take a stab at this.

Collected from the Middle Cumberland drainage in a headwater creek of Buck creek, above the pond. Major difference in this O.throat and others I've collected throughout KY is the absence of blue color on the body. Pics aren't great, this is in a friends tank that caught it. This was the only big Male we collected, but there were tons of juveniles. We also collect breeding rainbows in the same small creek.

Posted Image

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#2 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 08:21 AM

I think what Todd has been trying to communicate in some of the other like posts and that Pat Ceas also explained is that your location pretty much determines your species. There are very few places where sympatry of members of the Orangethroat complex exists in the Cumberland and Tennessee drainages. Don't have my Fishes of TN book handy so can't look at my modified distribution maps at this time.

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#3 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:25 AM

Wow, one creek, one species? That's some serious splitting. And it may even be true?

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#4 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:46 AM

I guess I didn't communicate that properly; not one creek, but the drainage or watershed. The descriptions were pretty specific like "Middle Cumblerand upstream of ______, except Caney Fork River" = this species.

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#5 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:53 AM

I think what Todd has been trying to communicate in some of the other like posts and that Pat Ceas also explained is that your location pretty much determines your species. There are very few places where sympatry of members of the Orangethroat complex exists in the Cumberland and Tennessee drainages. Don't have my Fishes of TN book handy so can't look at my modified distribution maps at this time.

That's kinda the reason I posted the pics. Most of KY's info that I can find usually just says Orangethroat darter. Should I just leave it at that? Here are the species lists for the nearest counties that were were in. So what you're saying is if overlap doesn't occur that much I should just run the species reference for that county/quad and let that deteremine the species?

Lincoln Conty

Pulaski County

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#6 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 10:50 AM

Which is not surprising since state resource agencies tend to lag behind scientific articles because they can't keep up with the break neck s speed of systematic ichthyologists. But....the information regarding the splits and their distribution is available, I think specifically made available here by the person who did the work, was discussed on the list about two years ago and should be archived, and can be figured out via NatureServe fish distribution Map. For example, Etheostoma sp. 8 is the Headwater darter (E. lawrenci?) and referenced to Ceas 1997 and the description of Ceas and Burr 2002.

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#7 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 11:12 AM

It's a little confusing (to a non-professional) when you see Etheostoma sp. 8 that refers to spectabile and then you see Etheostoma sp. 5 that refers to stigmaeum. To me, it looks like the same thing just by reading the list.

Anyways, I feel like I'm missing something or not understanding what you're telling me. I mean, I understand that without much overlap, location gives definition to species, but I'm having trouble finding the correct species for the location. I looked up the Natureserve data, and it gave about the same lists, exept it didn't have the Sheltowee Darter, spectabile, on the list. I wish these new fish splits/lists were more public information, or those who have it update lists quicker.

I suppose this spectabile is just spectabile?

Edit:
Sheltowee is in the Dix River system

Edited by jblaylock, 13 November 2009 - 11:41 AM.

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#8 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 12:13 PM

If you know the stream you collected your fish in is in the drainage of Etheostoma sp. X and the taxonomic reference at the top clarifies that it was a member of the E. spectabile complex then you have your answer. If you don't know the drainage basin your stream was in then you have to do a little sleuthing with other maps to figure it out. I even looked through multiple drainages in the region to check the references against E. spectabile members I know should be different. References in the species account at the top and the concept reference clarify the taxonomy and will tell you if sp. X is a spectabile of a stigmaeum or whatever. It really is that simple. Go to the map, find the draiange you were in, click on it, and it is one of the two Etheostoma sp. in this specific case. The information is publically available and is updated - that's the point of NatureServe. It honestly shouldn't take more than 5 minutes if you know the drainage.

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#9 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 01:22 PM

I got it now. I know what drainage I was in and according to that it has to be classified as a headwater darter though it doesn't show a lot of the blue color that headwaters usually do.

Is there a reason that spectabile varies so much beween the species? I mean, in one day I could easily find 4 or 5 different 'appearing' spectabile between different drainages.

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#10 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:18 PM

I would guess that what's driving the differentiation is the development of local versions of male coloration that become fixed in somewhat isolated populations by female choice, which is genetically fixed itself. And of course this time of year males aren't showing their full colors anyway.