need help with ID - possibly hybrid tilapia

hey folks. i got a good one here. we caught this guy last outing and haven't been able to pinpoint what fish it is. at first I thought it was the first time i've seen it, but going back in my pictures I realized we've caught it 1-2 times before as well.

this is the fish in question:



this is a picture of what i think is the same fish, caught in a different county altogether. based on the filename i had assumed it was a sunfish but now i'm confused...



this one looks kinda like the above fish as well, but i see some purple near the anal fin that now makes me think may be a bluegill?




are these three the same fish? if yes, what is it? if not, what are the different fish?


ultimately my main concern is the first picture, the latest catch. I believe it's either a juvenile Nile Tilapia, or a hybrid of Nile Tilapia x Spotted Tilapia. i've had no luck searching online for comparison images, so i'm hoping someone with personal first hand experience here can help me out.

thanks!

Wow, Yemil, you really come up with some weird stuff from the canals down there! Do you have space to grow out fish number one? I'd like to see what it grows up to look like.

I can tell you that none of the fish are pure bluegills--bluegills do not have red eyes.
http://i.treehugger....unfish subs.jpg

Fish numbers two and three might be a hybrid bluegill/green sunfish. The two species were commonly hybridized in the mistaken belief that they couldn't reproduce. What may be complicating things is that it may not be a one-to-one hybrid--there could have been a back cross to one of the parent species.

Bluegills do not have the fluorescent green striations on the gill cover, like the green sunfish does(and like many other Lepomids.)

What really complicates things is that none of your fish have a dark or pronouced opercular "dot" like Lepomids do. (Except your first fish, which has the beginnings of one.) This could be a function of their very young age. The opercular spot gets bigger as fish grow older.

hey folks. i got a good one here. we caught this guy last outing and haven't been able to pinpoint what fish it is. at first I thought it was the first time i've seen it, but going back in my pictures I realized we've caught it 1-2 times before as well.

this is the fish in question:



this is a picture of what i think is the same fish, caught in a different county altogether. based on the filename i had assumed it was a sunfish but now i'm confused...



this one looks kinda like the above fish as well, but i see some purple near the anal fin that now makes me think may be a bluegill?




are these three the same fish? if yes, what is it? if not, what are the different fish?


ultimately my main concern is the first picture, the latest catch. I believe it's either a juvenile Nile Tilapia, or a hybrid of Nile Tilapia x Spotted Tilapia. i've had no luck searching online for comparison images, so i'm hoping someone with personal first hand experience here can help me out.

thanks!

#2 looks more like a cichlid, maybe Mayan?, than a sunfish. IF it's a sunfish, which i doubt, then maybe a weird warmouth or hybrid ??? #3 my guess is spotted sunfish Lep. punctatus. #1 i dont think blue tilapia would hybridize naturally with spotted, since blue is a mouthbrooder and spotted is a bottom-spawner. But blue x nile or mozambique tilapia is possible, all mouthbrooders.

For the record, some of my bluegill have redder eyes than any shown in this thread.

The middle fish looks a little like either one of the pike cichlids or a croaking gourami (anal fins looks like it has a large number of rays).

#2 looks more like a cichlid, maybe Mayan?, than a sunfish. IF it's a sunfish, which i doubt, then maybe a weird warmouth or hybrid ??? #3 my guess is spotted sunfish Lep. punctatus. #1 i dont think blue tilapia would hybridize naturally with spotted, since blue is a mouthbrooder and spotted is a bottom-spawner. But blue x nile or mozambique tilapia is possible, all mouthbrooders.

I had a Texas cichlid female spawn with central longear male. Nothing hatched even though both fish tended eggs for about three days. I do not think the eggs were fertilized at least in part due to major incompatabilites associated with tieming and positioning of gamete release. I bet not viable even if fertilization ensured by manual mixing of gametes.

I meant to suggest a warmouth x other sunfish hybrid (spotted?), not a warmouth x cichlid hybrid. Sorry i wasn't clear. Thats quite an odd couple, texas cichlid + longear sun. If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with.

I had a Texas cichlid female spawn with central longear male. Nothing hatched even though both fish tended eggs for about three days. I do not think the eggs were fertilized at least in part due to major incompatabilites associated with tieming and positioning of gamete release. I bet not viable even if fertilization ensured by manual mixing of gametes.

If the second fish were to involve a warmouth hybrid, then one of the parents would have to be a black bass. Too elongate to be anything else. The documented individuals of such a cross had large mouth and slightly forked caudel fin typical of Micropterus and Lepomis spp. Fish picture appears to have a rounded tail. It also appears to have two nasal openings, not one typical of cichlids.

Yemil - Get or make a photo tank so you can shoot pix of fish IN WATER. Even a plastic "specimen container" will work - the ones pet shops use when bagging fish. That'll make ID easier, unless of course its more entertaining to watch us all speculate ad nauseum. I can't discern nostrils or tail shape on that photo, but I just noticed the LIPS look like a cichlid: see how the rear part of the upper lip recesses inside the lower lip? Compare that with the spotted sunfish below where the lower lip recesses inside the upper lip.

If the second fish were to involve a warmouth hybrid, then one of the parents would have to be a black bass. Too elongate to be anything else. The documented individuals of such a cross had large mouth and slightly forked caudel fin typical of Micropterus and Lepomis spp. Fish picture appears to have a rounded tail. It also appears to have two nasal openings, not one typical of cichlids.

Edited by gerald, 04 December 2009 - 05:36 PM.

Wow, Yemil, you really come up with some weird stuff from the canals down there! Do you have space to grow out fish number one? I'd like to see what it grows up to look like.

I can tell you that none of the fish are pure bluegills--bluegills do not have red eyes.
http://i.treehugger....unfish subs.jpg

Fish numbers two and three might be a hybrid bluegill/green sunfish. The two species were commonly hybridized in the mistaken belief that they couldn't reproduce. What may be complicating things is that it may not be a one-to-one hybrid--there could have been a back cross to one of the parent species.

Bluegills do not have the fluorescent green striations on the gill cover, like the green sunfish does(and like many other Lepomids.)

What really complicates things is that none of your fish have a dark or pronouced opercular "dot" like Lepomids do. (Except your first fish, which has the beginnings of one.) This could be a function of their very young age. The opercular spot gets bigger as fish grow older.

well the fish didnt look like bluegills to me either as i catch those often, though not quite at this size. if they're hybridized sunfish Im not concerned with the fish, honestly. i'm honestly more interested in the fish being a tilapia or cichlid in general and what kind it would be. it appears that you dont believe it to be a tilapia at all?
unfortunately none of these fish were kept past the photographs. if i dont know what the fish is I don't tend to take it home with me!

#2 looks more like a cichlid, maybe Mayan?, than a sunfish. IF it's a sunfish, which i doubt, then maybe a weird warmouth or hybrid ??? #3 my guess is spotted sunfish Lep. punctatus. #1 i dont think blue tilapia would hybridize naturally with spotted, since blue is a mouthbrooder and spotted is a bottom-spawner. But blue x nile or mozambique tilapia is possible, all mouthbrooders.

none of the fish there are Mayans. I catch C. urophthalmus all the time and can identify them easily. i wasn't aware of the difference between the spotted and blue tilapias. but blue x nile tilapia sounds about right, as the one good image of O. niloticus i found looked very similar to the fish in question!

The middle fish looks a little like either one of the pike cichlids or a croaking gourami (anal fins looks like it has a large number of rays).

i'm sorry, the pictures never look quite like the right thing. the fish was either a sunfish or a cichlid. definitely not a pike or gourami of any sorts.

I meant to suggest a warmouth x other sunfish hybrid (spotted?), not a warmouth x cichlid hybrid. Sorry i wasn't clear. Thats quite an odd couple, texas cichlid + longear sun. If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with.

If the second fish were to involve a warmouth hybrid, then one of the parents would have to be a black bass. Too elongate to be anything else. The documented individuals of such a cross had large mouth and slightly forked caudel fin typical of Micropterus and Lepomis spp. Fish picture appears to have a rounded tail. It also appears to have two nasal openings, not one typical of cichlids.

it just gets so complicated. can a warmouth really hybridize with a black bass?!

Yemil - Get or make a photo tank so you can shoot pix of fish IN WATER. Even a plastic "specimen container" will work - the ones pet shops use when bagging fish. That'll make ID easier, unless of course its more entertaining to watch us all speculate ad nauseum. I can't discern nostrils or tail shape on that photo, but I just noticed the LIPS look like a cichlid: see how the rear part of the upper lip recesses inside the lower lip? Compare that with the spotted sunfish below where the lower lip recesses inside the upper lip.

I apologize for that. I have tried using photo tanks in the field and the result is never the same. the fish lose their color and focusing becomes much more difficult. i will continue to try, but from now on i'll take pictures outside and then in the photo tank, and pick the best ones.

thank you all for the help. unless I missed it somewhere, we haven't agreed on an ID for the first fish, correct?

to me it looked 100% cichlid, and 95% tilapia sp...but i guess it's the one that we'll never identify. now i know if i catch another one to take it home and grow it out to see what happens.

The following are cichlids; all tilapia, pike cichlids, peacock bass, freshwater anglefish and others species with cichlid in name. Pike / pickerels are not the same as pike cichlids.

The second fish in question is most likely a cichlid of some sort but a better image is needed. I no longer think it is a gouramie (dorsal fin too large / too many rays) to be the comb-tailed paradise I thought it might be without must thought.


The first fish looks like a tilapia, similar to Nile but most stocks of such are not pure.


Warmouth and largemeouth bass can be crossed (not naturally to my knowledge) but not likely. I indicated evidence provided in photograph is not consistent with the hybrid as I have seen it.

Noel Burkhead at USGS in Gainesville > nburkhead@usgs.gov < keeps track of invasive fishes and might be able to ID that cichlid. If it's something not previously reported as "established" he'll be interested. Or post it to Monster Fishkeepers or one of the cichlid forums. Might it be "Cichlasoma" umbriferum ?

The top two are Cichlid species.
You can see the broken lateral line on the second indicating cichlid.
As for the exact species I would say some type of Talapia based on the mouth shape.

The last fish is a sunfish and most likely a spotted sunfish.
You can see the iridescent blue dash directly under the eye ball.
An identifier for spotted cichlid.
Although it still may be a hybrid of sorts, but has some spotted sunfish parentage.

Beautiful fish!

The top fish is a tilapia, genus = Oreochromis. Basically all of the Oreochromis that you find in most places are hybrids of some sort, sometimes with three species in them. The aquaculture folks did this as part of their stock enhancement decades ago. Your fish probably has some mossambica and/or aurea in it as those are two of the more common species that get mixed together. There could be other species involved as well.

Cheers
Peter