I would like to start a snail colony in a separate tank as a food source for my darters. Does anyone recommend a specific type of snail whether it be domestic or otherwise? Would apple snails work? Can scuds and snails be cultivated in the same tank?
starting a snail colony as a feeding supplement
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, Jan 03 2010 01:34 PM
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#2
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Posted 03 January 2010 - 01:48 PM
Scuds and snails can absolutely be grown together. I have no experience with apple snails, but I suspect they would quickly outgrow the size where they would be edible to your darters. Left-handed pond snails, aka bladder snails (Physa and Physella species) and common ramshorn snails (Helisoma, Planorbis, and related species) are good choices. They stay relatively small, are hardy and productive, and thrive on a diet of fish food, algae, and vegetable scraps (also a good diet for scuds).
#3
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Posted 03 January 2010 - 07:16 PM
Ramshorns or pond snails are good feeder snails. They both reproduce well. I like to crush the big ones, otherwise my tank ends up full of shells. Pieces of shell vacuum up well with my python where intact shells don't.
#4
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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:36 AM
Thanks for the replies. I did some research and found a good place to get pond snails is any local fish store. They typically are viewed as a nuisance and supposedly they will give you them for free. We'll see.
I also heard they typically prefer a higher ph for breeding as well as warmer temps. Is this true? Are there any other water parameters I should be aware of?
Other than for aesthetic reasons, is it bad to have empty snail shells lying around in my tank?
I also heard they typically prefer a higher ph for breeding as well as warmer temps. Is this true? Are there any other water parameters I should be aware of?
Other than for aesthetic reasons, is it bad to have empty snail shells lying around in my tank?
#5
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Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:33 AM
Snail shells are relatively light and will tend to get caught in and clog your gravel vacuum. Other than that, no harm.
If you intend to breed a lot of snails you will probably want to provide some kind of calcium supplement so they can build shells. A substrate of crushed oyster shell (about $10 for 50 lbs at a farm supply type store) is a good way to both add calcium and keep pH high. Crushed coral also works, but is awfully expensive and not very different. You can also use a cuttlebone which you can get dirt cheap in the bird section of any petstore.
Although the water is probably frozen where you are this time of year, I'd be surprised if there was any permanent body of water in your area that didn't contain wild pond snails. Scoop a net through the weeds.
If you intend to breed a lot of snails you will probably want to provide some kind of calcium supplement so they can build shells. A substrate of crushed oyster shell (about $10 for 50 lbs at a farm supply type store) is a good way to both add calcium and keep pH high. Crushed coral also works, but is awfully expensive and not very different. You can also use a cuttlebone which you can get dirt cheap in the bird section of any petstore.
Although the water is probably frozen where you are this time of year, I'd be surprised if there was any permanent body of water in your area that didn't contain wild pond snails. Scoop a net through the weeds.
Edited by gzeiger, 04 January 2010 - 09:34 AM.
#6
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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:54 AM
Yes, ponds snails of the genus Physa. Not all Physa are the same in regards to production rates.
Calcium supplement will keep hardness and alkalinity high. As for pH I would target a range 7- 8.
Keep nitrates low with frequent water changes. Increasing surface area helps provide more substrate for bacteria film to grow (serves as snail food) and depositions sites for egg masses. I like to use white PVC as the substrate which enables rapid assessment of snail abundance. Sheets would be better to allow easy harvest. Ample light should promote attached algae production to serve as food.
In the past, my cultures would produce well for a couple of months, then crash. Do not know why. It was not caused by over harvesting.
Calcium supplement will keep hardness and alkalinity high. As for pH I would target a range 7- 8.
Keep nitrates low with frequent water changes. Increasing surface area helps provide more substrate for bacteria film to grow (serves as snail food) and depositions sites for egg masses. I like to use white PVC as the substrate which enables rapid assessment of snail abundance. Sheets would be better to allow easy harvest. Ample light should promote attached algae production to serve as food.
In the past, my cultures would produce well for a couple of months, then crash. Do not know why. It was not caused by over harvesting.
#7
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Posted 04 January 2010 - 06:32 PM
I have several tanks. Tanks without snail eaters produce snails that I feed to snail eating fish in other tanks. Shells look untidy, but don't harm anything unless there are a lot of them containing half eaten snails. Then you might get ammonia/nitrite spikes.
#8
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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:04 PM
I have several tanks. Tanks without snail eaters produce snails that I feed to snail eating fish in other tanks. Shells look untidy, but don't harm anything unless there are a lot of them containing half eaten snails. Then you might get ammonia/nitrite spikes.
Is there any danger of introducing parasites with snails? I know in my outdoor ponds they are one of the vectors in a cycle that involves predator birds such as herons and Kingfishers.
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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:15 PM
Snails raised indoors have not been associated with the trematodes that affect my research. Parasites not inherited from parents but rather derived from avian host. Snails of recent wild origin are likely to be different unless free swimming stage of parasites unable to infect in a tank setting.
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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:12 PM
Is there any danger of introducing parasites with snails? I know in my outdoor ponds they are one of the vectors in a cycle that involves predator birds such as herons and Kingfishers.
I've never had any problems. I almost never use plants I've collected, most come from stores or other hobbyists. It would follow that most of my snails came in as eggs on plants.
I've found that snail populations in a tank are a good indicator of whether I'm feeding the correct amount. Overfeeding causes plagues of snails.
Edited by schambers, 05 January 2010 - 07:14 PM.
#11
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Posted 07 January 2010 - 10:36 AM
I had a massive infection of leeches in a ramshorn snail breeding tank. I assume they were of some variety that fed on the snails as those were the only two things in the tank. It would likely not have been a problem in a tank with fish as they would have just been more food, but I did away with the tank instead of finding out. They were interesting creatures in their own right, but they weren't exactly appealing to the eye.
They were some red ramshorns that I picked up off of ebay. Outside of the leeches I've never seen anything breed quite as quickly as those snails. There were about half a dozen egg sacs in the shipping bag, and I went from 20 snails to what seemed like 200 in the span of a week.
I've got a very heavily planted tank with ramshorns that I caught locally and a couple of darters. I've not seen a young snail since the first ones I added, but I've got fat darters along with tons of snail egg sacs on the plants. The large snails don't seem to be bothered by the orangethroat or rainbow darter in the tank. I assume the young are being gobbled up as they are nowhere to be seen. The snails do have some difficulty with the power heads in the tank. They like to crawl onto the intakes and get stuck, so I toss in more adults on occasion.
They were some red ramshorns that I picked up off of ebay. Outside of the leeches I've never seen anything breed quite as quickly as those snails. There were about half a dozen egg sacs in the shipping bag, and I went from 20 snails to what seemed like 200 in the span of a week.
I've got a very heavily planted tank with ramshorns that I caught locally and a couple of darters. I've not seen a young snail since the first ones I added, but I've got fat darters along with tons of snail egg sacs on the plants. The large snails don't seem to be bothered by the orangethroat or rainbow darter in the tank. I assume the young are being gobbled up as they are nowhere to be seen. The snails do have some difficulty with the power heads in the tank. They like to crawl onto the intakes and get stuck, so I toss in more adults on occasion.
Edited by Clayton, 07 January 2010 - 10:37 AM.
#12
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Posted 07 January 2010 - 12:10 PM
My lfs said they would give me all the pond snails I wanted. They said they have people who regularly come in for them for thier puffers.
Will mud minnows eat these same snails we are talking about? Would 70 degrees be a temp breed them or should I go higher?
Will mud minnows eat these same snails we are talking about? Would 70 degrees be a temp breed them or should I go higher?
#13
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Posted 07 January 2010 - 12:57 PM
Will mud minnows eat these same snails we are talking about? Would 70 degrees be a temp breed them or should I go higher?
I've not kept mudminnows before so can't answer that part. The snails will surely live and breed at 70 degrees, they may breed faster at higher temps. Whether that would be significantly faster though, I'm not sure. I assume 70 is the room temp where the snails will be kept? I'd suggest starting at room temp and see how it goes. If you're happy with the results keep it as is. If it seems to be going too slow then go ahead and add a heater and see if things change. No point in going out and buying a heater or tying up one you already have if you don't need to.
#14
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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:43 PM
Room temp isn't 70, not sure exactly but probably in the low 60's. I keep all my fish in the basement.
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Posted 07 January 2010 - 04:00 PM
The mudminnows will probably eat them. Pond snails have relatively thin shells and are vulnerable to generalized predators as well as dedicated snail hunters. I have some in an unheated greenhouse; I know they keep breeding down into the upper 50s at least. As smilingfrog says, higher temps will boost reproductive rate.
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Posted 08 January 2010 - 01:32 PM
Wow a subject I can answer 
First off let me say I have been breeding different snails for many years of all types and I breed Ponds, Rams, and Bladders for feeders for my Assassin Snails. If you follow a few guidelines they are easy and I will give you my setup:
10 Gallon tank
Play sand substrate just for looks
Rocks and Plants for more egg laying places and to allow growth of food for the snails and again for looks.
74 degrees is the prime breeding temp
Sponge filter
Weekly 50% water change just removed from the top.
Now once the tank is established go to your LFS, Petsmart, or Petco being the best and just browse the plant tanks at Petco or all the tanks at Petsmart and ask if they will give you half a dozen of what ever kinds they have usually Bladders and Rams. Take said snail home and let them go. Once a day or every other day drop a green bean in the tank, I buy the huge packs from Costco. As the snail population increases increase the # of beans dropped in so that it matches what they can eat in a day. For calcium drop one fruit flavored tums in the tank once a week. I usually do this right after the water change so I remember. You can also use pucks made of plaster of paris and you just add a new puck when the old one has dissolved.
Now to collect the snails just drop in the bean wait an hour remove the snail log and drop the bean back in the tank simple and easy. On one of my 10's I can harvest around 25 adult snails a week and the population can keep up. If you need more than that you might want to make a larger setup or a more than one.
Hope that helps.
First off let me say I have been breeding different snails for many years of all types and I breed Ponds, Rams, and Bladders for feeders for my Assassin Snails. If you follow a few guidelines they are easy and I will give you my setup:
10 Gallon tank
Play sand substrate just for looks
Rocks and Plants for more egg laying places and to allow growth of food for the snails and again for looks.
74 degrees is the prime breeding temp
Sponge filter
Weekly 50% water change just removed from the top.
Now once the tank is established go to your LFS, Petsmart, or Petco being the best and just browse the plant tanks at Petco or all the tanks at Petsmart and ask if they will give you half a dozen of what ever kinds they have usually Bladders and Rams. Take said snail home and let them go. Once a day or every other day drop a green bean in the tank, I buy the huge packs from Costco. As the snail population increases increase the # of beans dropped in so that it matches what they can eat in a day. For calcium drop one fruit flavored tums in the tank once a week. I usually do this right after the water change so I remember. You can also use pucks made of plaster of paris and you just add a new puck when the old one has dissolved.
Now to collect the snails just drop in the bean wait an hour remove the snail log and drop the bean back in the tank simple and easy. On one of my 10's I can harvest around 25 adult snails a week and the population can keep up. If you need more than that you might want to make a larger setup or a more than one.
Hope that helps.
Edited by sounguru, 08 January 2010 - 01:34 PM.
#17
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Posted 08 January 2010 - 03:34 PM
I don't know exactly what kind of ramshorn snails I've got, but they're pretty impressive in both their rate of reproduction and ability to keep tanks sparking clean and free of any visible algae. I originally got them on some val plants sent to me in 2008 by threegoldfish. I don't do anything specific to encourage or discourage them, and they always seem to maintain a very healthy population. These particular snails get up to something approaching dime-sized. My gambusia don't seem to be able to eat even the babies, but pumkinseeds and bullheads I had a couple years back were able to make quick work of even large adults.
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#18
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Posted 08 January 2010 - 04:20 PM
Those are just the common ramshorn found in the aquarium trade. Nice thing about the aquarium snails you don't have to worry about parasite or disease transmission. With wild collected snails I always QT them for at least 3 months to make sure I'm past the lifespan of any parasites.
I'll add a little ID section here of common snails that are found or considered pest in the aquarium trade so they are easy to get. I just realized I don't have a picture of a Pond but the difference on it and the bladder is they are usually a little larger and have donkey ears also the shell twirls a different way but that is harder to determine sometimes. One more note the MTS is not a good snail for feeding the shell is too hard, but is a great snail for planted tanks because it stirs up the substrate keeping gas pockets down and helps nutrients reach the roots. Bladders and MTS do not need a mate the Bladder can make clones of itself and the MTS is a live bearer and is basically born prego. Rams you will need two but that is all since they can be either sex depending on what mood strikes them.
Also in order of best food to worst it would be:
Bladder
Pond
Ram
MTS (not really a choice but since I have it listed)
Ramshorn eggs
Red Ram
Leopard Ram
Albino Bladder
Common Ram
Bladder
MTS (Malaysian Tunneling Snail)
Hope no one minded it just seemed a good place to help Id what snails are common and which ones make good food sources.
I'll add a little ID section here of common snails that are found or considered pest in the aquarium trade so they are easy to get. I just realized I don't have a picture of a Pond but the difference on it and the bladder is they are usually a little larger and have donkey ears also the shell twirls a different way but that is harder to determine sometimes. One more note the MTS is not a good snail for feeding the shell is too hard, but is a great snail for planted tanks because it stirs up the substrate keeping gas pockets down and helps nutrients reach the roots. Bladders and MTS do not need a mate the Bladder can make clones of itself and the MTS is a live bearer and is basically born prego. Rams you will need two but that is all since they can be either sex depending on what mood strikes them.
Also in order of best food to worst it would be:
Bladder
Pond
Ram
MTS (not really a choice but since I have it listed)
Ramshorn eggs
Red Ram
Leopard Ram
Albino Bladder
Common Ram
Bladder
MTS (Malaysian Tunneling Snail)
Hope no one minded it just seemed a good place to help Id what snails are common and which ones make good food sources.
Edited by sounguru, 08 January 2010 - 04:51 PM.
#19
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:59 PM
Good stuff sounguru. Tums? Really?
So I thought of this in the shower today. What if I was to set up a 10 gallon tank with a sand substrate. Put in several large stones with lots of java moss attached to them and introduce scuds, snails and ghost shrimp. My thinking is the ghost shrimp would spawn and the babies would hide in the moss along with the scuds and some snails. In a rotation cycle remove one of the stones and put it in my darter tank for 24 hours and then put it back into feeder tank to reseed. Use a different stone the next time and continue rotating. I figure this would be a great way to provide my fish with some supplemental live stuff.
Anyone ever use ghost shrimp babies as feeders? How often do they spawn? Will they eat my scuds? Scuds, snails, and shrimp too much for a ten gallon?
Has anyone ever fed adult ghost shrimp to mudminnows? I'd like to think they would rip them to pieces!
So I thought of this in the shower today. What if I was to set up a 10 gallon tank with a sand substrate. Put in several large stones with lots of java moss attached to them and introduce scuds, snails and ghost shrimp. My thinking is the ghost shrimp would spawn and the babies would hide in the moss along with the scuds and some snails. In a rotation cycle remove one of the stones and put it in my darter tank for 24 hours and then put it back into feeder tank to reseed. Use a different stone the next time and continue rotating. I figure this would be a great way to provide my fish with some supplemental live stuff.
Anyone ever use ghost shrimp babies as feeders? How often do they spawn? Will they eat my scuds? Scuds, snails, and shrimp too much for a ten gallon?
Has anyone ever fed adult ghost shrimp to mudminnows? I'd like to think they would rip them to pieces!
#20
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Posted 14 January 2010 - 12:58 AM
Good stuff sounguru. Tums? Really?
So I thought of this in the shower today. What if I was to set up a 10 gallon tank with a sand substrate. Put in several large stones with lots of java moss attached to them and introduce scuds, snails and ghost shrimp. My thinking is the ghost shrimp would spawn and the babies would hide in the moss along with the scuds and some snails. In a rotation cycle remove one of the stones and put it in my darter tank for 24 hours and then put it back into feeder tank to reseed. Use a different stone the next time and continue rotating. I figure this would be a great way to provide my fish with some supplemental live stuff.
Anyone ever use ghost shrimp babies as feeders? How often do they spawn? Will they eat my scuds? Scuds, snails, and shrimp too much for a ten gallon?
Has anyone ever fed adult ghost shrimp to mudminnows? I'd like to think they would rip them to pieces!
Yep Tums, pure calcium carbonate.
Plaster of Paris is used to make those weekend feeder blocks and also works real well for snails just takes longer to dissolve than tums. They are a great source of Calcium Carbonate too.
But what can I say I make snail jello and plaster pucks for my snails ....
Now on to the rest... The last ghost shrimp I had found my bladder and rams to be a real tasty snack. Breeding American Glass shrimp (aka ghost shrimp) isn't that easy.
Here is a link for ya American Glass Shrimp
Sadly a lot of the shrimp you see sold as ghost may not be American Glass and require brackish water to breed.
Edited by sounguru, 14 January 2010 - 01:00 AM.
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