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Building a "Darterbase" (nee Ulocentra questions)

Started by Guest_Newt_* , Jan 06 2010 01:45 PM

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#1 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:45 PM

I'm trying to scrape together a general understanding of Etheostoma (Ulocentra) phylogeography. So far I have a list of 20 species and their ranges.

simoterum group

E. baileyi- upper Kentucky, upper Cumberland above the falls, Big South Fork, Rockcastle
E. barrenense- Barren
E. rafinesquei- Green exclusive of range of E. barrenense
E. simoterum- Tennessee and Cumberland

duryi group

E. bellator- upper Black Warrior
E. brevirostrum- upper Coosa
E. cervus- upper Forked Deer
E. chermocki- upper Turkey Creek (Locust Fork of Black Warrior)
E. colorosum- Gulf Coastal drainages from Perdido to Choctawatchee
E. coosae- upper Coosa
E. duryi- Tennessee from Emory downstream, minus Blue Ridge-draining tribs and most of Duck/Buffalo
E. etnieri- Caney Fork
E. flavum- lower Cumberland, lower Tennessee including Duck/Buffalo
E. lachneri- Tombigbee below and along Fall Line
E. pyrrhogaster- upper Obion
E. ramseyi- Cahaba, Alabama below Fall Line, Mobile/Tensaw
E. raneyi- Yazoo
E. scotti- Etowah
E. tallapoosae- Tallapoosa
E. zonistium- Coastal Plain tribs of lower Tennessee, upper Hatchie; headwaters of Blackwarrior and Tennessee in extreme southwestern Cumberland Plateau

As far as I can figure out, the members of the simoterum group are entirely allopatric from one another, while the members of the duryi group are mainly allopatric except for the lower Tennessee (E. duryi + E. flavum in Highland Rim tribs, E. zonistium in Coastal Plain tribs), upper Duck (E. duryi + E. flavum), upper Coosa (E. brevisostrum + E. coosae), and possibly parts of the Black Warrior (E. bellator + E. chermocki, E. bellator + E. zonistium). The two groups as a whole overlap only in the Tennessee and lower Cumberland drainages.

Any major mistakes or omissions here? I know E. simoterum and E. etnieri have each been split up in the fairly recent past, but I have so far been unable to find the relevant articles. Any links or citations of those would be appreciated!

#2 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:17 PM

Off the top of my head, here's the first you should grab:

http://forum.nanfa.o...enus-ulocentra/

I wasn't aware that etneri was split up. I'll look into that later on.

Todd

#3 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:20 PM

Hello Newt,
Etheostoma etnieri has not been split up.

#4 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:29 PM

Thanks! Todd, your link is not working, but I will see if I can dig it up. Tom, I must be misremembering a conversation. Wouldn't be the first time!

#5 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:51 PM

Go into the library it's about 2/3's down the page. It's the Powers and Mayden paper.

I'm going to bet that you were thinking of the bluemask darter, part of the stigmaeum complex. If you're interested in that species group too, I have some stuff I can send you off forum that may be of interest.

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 06 January 2010 - 03:52 PM.

#6 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:30 PM

I bet you're right on the stigmaeum. I knew it was something to do with the Caney Fork! Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got on them. You have my email, right?

Urgh...I can't get into the document library. I can't even find it. I remember where it used to be. Is it just me?

#7 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 05:32 PM

The link is on the main page under Scientific Discussion - there's a bullet that says "Document Library".

Does it show up in your view? Might be something with your permissions. It's only viewed by "NANFA Members" but the files are put there by Support Staff?

Todd

#8 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 05:39 PM

Blake sent me the PDF. Thanks man!

#9 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 01:16 PM

Blueface Darter (Etheostoma cf. zonistium). Is this the Black Warrior pop. of E. zonistium or something else?

#10 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 02:46 PM

Not sure if you'd found this before Nathan: http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/

Put "blueface" darter in the search. You'll get everything you'd like to know and references in the reference, status and distribution. This will be helpful for your other species (can search on "Etheostoma sp." for the unsubscribed species)

Todd

#11 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:55 PM

Thanks again Todd. I had used Natureserve to get species lists for watersheds, but hadn't realized it could be used the other way around. I found what I was looking for and then some! Apparently there are several undescribed Ulocentra lurking in the Black Warrior.

#12 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:30 PM

I'm putting together a little "darterbase" in Excel for easy reference. Right now I just have Linnaean and common names, basic taxonomy (subgenus and species group), and general range, but eventually I want to include relationships, selected meristic data, habitat parameters, HUC occurence codes, etc.

I've been mining Natureserve; with additions from the NANFA checklist and Southeastern Fishes Council list, I have a total of 204 Etheostoma species, including undescribed forms (but not including "ESUs" listed by SFC). I have range information for almost all of them; I am missing E. cf. stigmaeum "Clown Darter" and "Beaded Darter". Searches online have so far been fruitless. Can anyone supply me with the missing info?

#13 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 09:42 AM

That's all in Steve Layman's thesis on the shelf at UA.

What you might want to do is get a hold of Andrea Persons at Southern Mississippi. She's working on at least some aspect this again and is from whence the graphic that's give you this question has come. I'll email you her contact info.

Todd

#14 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:33 AM

Thanks Todd!

#15 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 03:22 PM

The Natureserve map for E. zonale shows a disjunct population in the Mississippi delta/Pearl River area. Is this an error? I have found no other references to it.

The wide-ranging E. spectabile and stigmaeum, among others, have been chopped up, and caeruleum, nigrum, and olmstedi seem to be ripe for the chopping block. Will the other large-range darters like chlorosomum, exile, blennioides, zonale, flabellare, etc. follow suit? Has variation in any of these been examined recently?

#16 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 03:52 PM

Look up the brighteye darter for your MS banded darter. I think that's what that was.

And yes. Blennioides is mess. There's at least 3 subspecies that will emerge from the dust (blennioides, philodotum and newmanii). The introgression that Ben and Tom are talking about in the redline darter is probably prevelant in the newmanii subspecies which makes TN an absolute mess, and is probably going to require a basin by basin analysis.

There's currently a fuss between Piller & Bart and Haponski & Stepien going on about greensides... I thought I saw both Kyle and Amanda's papers in the fabled Library of the NANFA Forum (did you figure that out yet?) I also have Pete Berendzen's thesis which I'll email to you.

I think flabellare from the lower TN north is a good species, but there's probably some work to be done on whatever that is in the upper T.

Zonale and caeruleum need some investigation, esp in the TN and Cumb.

I'm glad you're doing this. I wish I had a position somewhere coz I'd sure be served well to have you and the IL boys studying darterology with me

Todd

#17 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 04:53 PM

You know, you might be able to turn this into a review paper, Nathan. If you could use this to compile what has been done and use it to identify what needs done, this might be something Copeia (for example) might publish.

Todd

#18 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:01 PM

Thanks again for the info, Todd. Review paper, eh? I just might do that.

#19 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:48 PM

You know, I'd be interested to do that too. It'd be a good thing for both of our careers. Maybe we can split up the division of labor - others starting out might be interested in participating as well. Be a good start at an update of Lee et al too.

Those of you further along, do you think a project like this would be of merit?

#20 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:54 PM

You're certainly more qualified to write such a thing than I. My serious interest in darter phylogeny started about two hours before I posted this thread.