I think I got my summer sampling challenge (as soon as things thaw) picked out unless another fish catches my attention. Last summer I strove to find tesselate darters. This summer I feel my challenge may be the creek chub.

I know to those of you in New York where the Creek Chub is so common it's seen as a trash fish even by minnow enthusiasts and it is the main catch in most places that may seem odd. But I have yet to see a creek chub in New England.

Even stranger is the sketchy data on it I could find. One web page said they were the number ten most common native fish in the connecticut river drainage in NH and vermont, but that list excluded most native game fish that I have caught their.

Another page showed them as part of the miscellaneous category (less than 17% of sampled species and that category included ten species lumped together) in the upper souhegan river, but it was shown as absent from the lower souhegan river.

Stranger still I seen info on them in a tributary of Vermont's West River (the next tributary on the connecticut and fairly close to me). The tributary mentioned flowed from the green mountains and was called a "typical mountain stream".

Odd two clues point to colder upper reaches of rivers, which seem different from my NY experience.

Even stranger is I fished all my life and never remember catching a creek chub (though I only learned how to recognize bait fish recently) and creek chub definately grow big enough to catch.

This makes the fish a mystery and a challenge, a challenge compounded by the fact the new england info clashes with my NY experience slightly.

Their may be a few reasons for it (the main cyprinid in NH is the fallfish, which was largely absent from most NY spots. NY had a major overabundance of crayfish as well as numerous shiners and darters not found in NH to make a different forage base).

Unless another fish catches my attention, finding this one in NH may be my summer sampling goal.

Edited by FirstChAoS, 13 February 2010 - 11:53 PM.

I dont know about New England but here in the Ozarks they are in clear creeks with rock bottoms (usually in the same area longears are in) and can be readily seen and caught using insects or dry fly's.

Edited by wargreen, 14 February 2010 - 05:45 AM.

I think you are geographically located at the border between fallfish and creek chub domination of the same niche. [A niche historically dominated by brook trout, mostly long gone now]. I suspect there is direct competition. For whatever reason, fallfish own the coastal drainages while creek chubs seem to take over further west.
That is totally my own observation/opinion and may be all wet.

One advantage creek chubs would have in smaller inland streams is their ability to withstand extreme stresses such as low water flow during the peak of summer. I don't know fallfish well enough to say if they would have that same ability; maybe they require larger streams with a steadier flow regime? Just a thought.

I bet Mike's and Bruce's posts hold the keys to your puzzle (how's that for a mixed metaphor?). Here in TN, there are no Fallfish. Creek Chub occupy every stream in the state with any flow whatsoever, except the Mississippi itself. They range from big rivers all the way up into the tiniest headwaters up to the point where flow becomes so intermittent that the top predator spot is occupied by crayfish and salamanders. They occur over any substrate, any amount of flow except out-and-out slackwater, any water temp, any elevation except the highest mountain streams of the Blue Ridge, any water chemistry, almost any amount of pollution or siltation.

So, a limited availability of their preferred niche is not the problem, as their preferred niche is basically "fresh water". I think the green sunfish may be the only fish with a greater habitat range in the state. Forage bases are probably not it either. Competition (almost certainly from their congener, as none of the other 300 fish species found here seem to make much difference to them), or possibly historical limits to distribution, are where you should be looking.

Creek chubs were the first natives I kept as an adult (had a little bullhead in a 2g hex for a while as a kid). At the time I was living on one of the major tributaries of the Winooski river here in Vermont, right on the water at an impoundment above a small old mill dam. Large schools of 4-7" creek chubs would move through the pool in the Fall surface feeding in a pretty impressive display, almost a subdued version of the way some ocean fish like jacks and striped bass feed in an aggressive, fast-moving school. I very easily caught some on worms and a small hook. I literally could have fished for them from my kitchen window had I been so inclined.

Creek chub seem to be abundant in illinois in general, but in disturbed streams they happen to be one of the few fish i find. They are just so tolerant that they will take over when other species have left. They are also eating machines, get big fast, eat your fish and crayfish, but are friendly otherwise if not very belligerant. They will eat almost anything

Interesting to hear from the creek chub contingent because it supports my theory. Substitute "fallfish" for "creek chub" and you could be describing my New England experience with fallfish. Sounds like CC and fallfish have identical habitat and behavior. That explains why no fisherman ever heard of a fallfish but they all know they're supposed to toss the "creek chubs" on the bank.
I wonder if their breeding habits are similar. Do they hybridize?

I don't know if they have an opportunity to hybridize.

Creek chub are "pit ridge" nesters- dominant males build and defend long furrows in the gravel. Other minnows take advantage of this ready-made nesting site, and so hybrids of creek chub with various dace and other non-Semotilus minnows are pretty common. You get enough gametes from different species in the same nest, you're bound to get some hybridization. I believe fallfish reproduction is similar. In both cases, non-dominant males try to sneak in and fertilize eggs while the dominant male is distracted, so there is a ready mechanism for hybridization- if they occur in the same stream.

I wonder if their breeding habits are similar. Do they hybridize?

I'd love to know the definitive answer to that. I have been curious as NY (and many other western state) creek chubs i seen (in real life or in pictures) are highly pigmented with grey, brown, and pink. The few pictures of creek chubs east of the appelachians I seen pictures of are very silvery like fallfish. I wish I knew how to get genetic tests of them to see if this is a case of mere color variations, an effect of diet or habitat, sub species, hybridization, different species grouped as one fish, etc.

I would say it's one species made up of a continuum of local populations adapted to local conditions. If you go to south Alabama you'll find the dixie chub, which really is a similar but different species.

I would say it's one species made up of a continuum of local populations adapted to local conditions. If you go to south Alabama you'll find the dixie chub, which really is a similar but different species.

Interesting. I'd liken that to the ubiquitous milksnake [Lampropeltis triangulum] found from Canada to Coloumbia and considered all the same species despite being drastically regionally variable.
Actually, kinda the opposite. I'd say [unscientifically] that the various milksnakes should be separate species but are seen as one while the various chub-like critters are considered separate but are maybe not.

My observations of fallfish breeding is of fairly round shaped piles of stones, not ridges. Not many species available to use the fallfish nests. Common shiners must, creek chub suckers?. Not sure about blacknosed dace. That about sums it up for most of the coastal drainages.

I talked to the fish and game departments nongame guy and he told me creek chubs are common but are found mainly in riffles in trout streams. When I asked him on the differences between NH and NY creek chubs he thought my description of NY creek chubs were creek chub suckers. *sigh*

I hate knowing more about fish than people whose job it is to know about fish.

A new york web site says both chubs and fallfish are found "throughout the state". I'm wondering if even they bother to tell them apart.
I do find fallfish in just about any trout habitat that's bigger than a "leap across". IE not the high gradient cold spring fed which still support brookies but pretty much everywhere else including in slower dammed stretches of the high gradient streams.