killies: to move or not to move.

lately my 20 long my banded killies are in has been having cloudy water despite my best effort at water changes, for a few months i had a problem that when vaccuuming alot of dirt gets stirred up and the vascuume doesn't get it all. I tried adding water clarifier and all I got was a dead fish. to make it worse both my filters in it are slowly failing and one killie has developed the "whitehead" like white spot that I only seen in feeder minnows.

I wonder if I should move my killies to my 55 (where they are a similar size to the smaller shiners in it), do a very thorough cleaning on my 20 long including washing gravel, and then use my 20 long to raise daphina or other food critters.

I caution you about adding the killies to a healthy tank.
Banded killies are hardy to a point but are prone to fungus and ich when stressed. If they get involved with an outbreak, they can spread it to healthy fish.
Do you own a pickeral or an oscar or something?

lately my 20 long my banded killies are in has been having cloudy water despite my best effort at water changes, for a few months i had a problem that when vaccuuming alot of dirt gets stirred up and the vascuume doesn't get it all. I tried adding water clarifier and all I got was a dead fish. to make it worse both my filters in it are slowly failing and one killie has developed the "whitehead" like white spot that I only seen in feeder minnows.

I wonder if I should move my killies to my 55 (where they are a similar size to the smaller shiners in it), do a very thorough cleaning on my 20 long including washing gravel, and then use my 20 long to raise daphina or other food critters.

In their natural habitat on Long Island, they are often found in brackish water. I'm wondering if a smidgeon of salt might help with
the fungus. I'm sorry I can't recommend what amount of salt. . .

If they are brackish water fish, then they won't do well in soft water or without salt. Other than that, the amount of salt isn't critical. I would start off with a quarter cup of marine salt. That will give about 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water. That's a minimum. I wouldn't feed for 4 or 5 days either, see if that doesn't help clear up the water.

I beg to differ on banded killies being brackish water fish.
They may sometimes be found in slightly brackish [I suspect misidentified mummies myself], but they are most often seen in my neighborhood in clear, cool weed free sandy areas in fresh water kettle pond.

My prediction is that if the stress levels got high enough, the killies will bloom fungus leading to ich. Any that survive will be typhoid Marys harboring hidden ich.
It's hard but nature perfected the system over millinia. The sick ones gotta go, for the greater good.
A pickeral would do the job in the natural way.

How have they been doing? Any fungus?

Healthy ones in the wild dont need salt, but i think sick or stressed ones in captivity could benefit from salt, about 1 teasp/gal. In NC they occur mainly in tidal freshwater close to the fresh/brackish transition, so they probably like a bit more mineral content than soft freshwater has to offer. Of course NC diaphanus may be genetically quite different from your northern inland ones, but I'd guess they evolved from brackish water ancestors. That said, we have a landlocked diaphanus-like killie in Lake Phelps, which is fairly soft and acidic.

I beg to differ on banded killies being brackish water fish.
They may sometimes be found in slightly brackish [I suspect misidentified mummies myself], but they are most often seen in my neighborhood in clear, cool weed free sandy areas in fresh water kettle pond.

My prediction is that if the stress levels got high enough, the killies will bloom fungus leading to ich. Any that survive will be typhoid Marys harboring hidden ich.
It's hard but nature perfected the system over millinia. The sick ones gotta go, for the greater good.
A pickeral would do the job in the natural way.

How have they been doing? Any fungus?

Healthy ones in the wild dont need salt, but i think sick or stressed ones in captivity could benefit from salt, about 1 teasp/gal. In NC they occur mainly in tidal freshwater close to the fresh/brackish transition, so they probably like a bit more mineral content than soft freshwater has to offer. Of course NC diaphanus may be genetically quite different from your northern inland ones, but I'd guess they evolved from brackish water ancestors. That said, we have a landlocked diaphanus-like killie in Lake Phelps, which is fairly soft and acidic.

Isn't there also one in Lake Waccamaw?

Yes but Lake Waccamaw has near-neutral pH and higher mineral content, so not too surprising that critters derived from brackish ancestors could do well there. That lake also has a Menidia silverside derived from brackish ancestors.

Isn't there also one in Lake Waccamaw?

Yes but Lake Waccamaw has near-neutral pH and higher mineral content, so not too surprising that critters derived from brackish ancestors could do well there. That lake also has a Menidia silverside derived from brackish ancestors.

Good point about the silversides.
I thought Waccamaw was one of those Bay Lakes with the red water and low pH. Never been, but use to like camping at Jones Lake which is not far from Waccamaw. Jones is a red, low pH lake with not many fish. At least I never saw any. I didn't ever try sampling. We were more in snake hunting mode when we went there.

Lake Waccamaw is fairly clear, just a little tannin-stained, and has some limestone around it. But the rest of the streams in the Waccamaw River watershed are mostly acidic and dark. Theres a state park campground on the eastern shore of the lake if you can make it down here sometime. Ecologically its a whole 'nother world from the other Carolina Bay lakes.

Good point about the silversides.
I thought Waccamaw was one of those Bay Lakes with the red water and low pH. Never been, but use to like camping at Jones Lake which is not far from Waccamaw. Jones is a red, low pH lake with not many fish. At least I never saw any. I didn't ever try sampling. We were more in snake hunting mode when we went there.

How have they been doing? Any fungus?

So far they have no fungus or ich (not counting the ich case months before the patches appeared that i successfully fought off), just whitish or in one pinkish patches. I tried adding a fungucide and water changes but nothing changed, the water is still cloudy too. I have 3 filters on it. (one failed, the other is weak and may need cleaning).

Edited by FirstChAoS, 11 March 2010 - 01:00 PM.

Glad to be wrong about that one.

I have to rethink the brackish thing.
just for fun I may try and find some in brackish. It's not like I don't spend much time near the salt.

So many killies to sort through! Wonder if they mix w/mummies...

Edited by mikez, 11 March 2010 - 06:21 PM.

So many killies to sort through! Wonder if they mix w/mummies...

They do. They come up in the same net when I dipnet for bait, and they seem fine together when held over in an aquarium for later use.

What kind of habitat? How close to salt?

Edited by mikez, 12 March 2010 - 09:21 PM.

Salt marsh. Coordinates: 37.097668,-76.285683. Copy/paste the coordinates into google maps and you can see one of the areas on satellite.

They do. They come up in the same net when I dipnet for bait, and they seem fine together when held over in an aquarium for later use.

According to naturserve they not only MIX with mummies, they also CROSS with mummies. To quote natureserve "On the Atlantic coast of Nova Scotia, hybrids of F. DIAPHANUS and F. HETEROCLITUS are unisexual diploid gynogens; sperm from males probably is required to stimulate embryogenesis (Dawley et al. 2000)."

According to naturserve they not only MIX with mummies, they also CROSS with mummies. To quote natureserve "On the Atlantic coast of Nova Scotia, hybrids of F. DIAPHANUS and F. HETEROCLITUS are unisexual diploid gynogens; sperm from males probably is required to stimulate embryogenesis (Dawley et al. 2000)."

The Plot Thickens!
I find it odd considering the more or less face to face nature of diaphanus spawning. Males guard territory and females activley choose the males they want to breed with.

In the saltmarsh the mummies get up back in pee warm inches deep half mulm marsh and get all mixed up in groups.

Can't see a mummie female approaching a male diaphanus guarding a tiny clump of weed. Maybe some places are crowded and small and mixed species congregating break down the individual territories and makes it a free for all.
Interesting....

I'll be looking at the marsh with new curiosity [as if I need an excuse ]. Serendipitously, before logging on here, I just set into motion a south coast trip. Stripers, copperheads, plowed fields and schools of mixed killies as far as the eye can see. Maybe even a spotfin. Better make it a long weekend.