ID these sunfish

The first picture of young sunfish....is this warmouth? Not green x warmouth hybrid?
The second picture of adult sunfish claimed to be Green X Warmouth hybrid but I do not see any warmouth traits on this sunfish, only Green traits. Oh by way these pictures was come from a forum.

First one looks warmouth - nothing out of the ordinary. The second is no doubt has green in it, but looks to have some p-seed coloration.

Edit: I see they are on the MFK forum. I am looking at what others say right now actually.

Edited by UncleWillie, 09 March 2010 - 05:22 PM.

First fish looks like a warmouth. Second certainly has green sunfish in it and by all characters I look for, it also looks like a hybrid. Mouth too large to be a cross involving bluegill, redear or pumpkinseed. It looks very similar to green x warmouth we made in lab two years ago. It could even be an allotriploid (2 parts green: 1 part warmouth). The allodiploid and allotriploid are hard to tell apart based on appearance. Notice how the green stripes radiate from the eye like the broader brownish bands of a warmouth radiate. Some green x pumpkinseeds exhibit that pattern but the mouth is also much smaller realative to fish overal size.

Uncle Willie,

That spotting pattern like in pumpkinseed seems to pop up a lot in hybrids I have seen.

Edited by centrarchid, 09 March 2010 - 05:22 PM.

The photos are decent but not really good enough IMO to confirm all that much.

Top is a warmouth bottom looks like a warmouth mixed with something else (hybrid).

I would actually agree with the photos, I think both are warmouth x green sunfish hybrids. I can see characters of both species in both of them. I have only ever caught one fish that I thought was one of these. Were these artificially produced?

That spotting pattern like in pumpkinseed seems to pop up a lot in hybrids I have seen.

I can see what you mean. I have gone back and looked at some of yours, and others' known hybrid threads with pictures. That's very interesting and definately something I will start to look at now.

Something I noticed about these images, and others, is different computer monitor / screen stretches or shortens the images in different ways. Confusing.

I must also ask, are the photographs of known hybrids?

Something I noticed about these images, and others, is different computer monitor / screen stretches or shortens the images in different ways. Confusing.

I must also ask, are the photographs of known hybrids?

No they werent known hybrids. First fish were caught by a kid who claimed it as hybrid. The second fish were come from a fishing forum....so I dont think these fish were confirmed as Green x Warmouth hybrids. How you know if it has warmouth traits on hybrids? Especially cross with a green sunfish.

No they werent known hybrids. First fish were caught by a kid who claimed it as hybrid. The second fish were come from a fishing forum....so I dont think these fish were confirmed as Green x Warmouth hybrids. How you know if it has warmouth traits on hybrids? Especially cross with a green sunfish.

I think no one has indicated second fish does not have at least some green sunfish in its background. That is the starting point. I assert the fish appears outside the range of appearances I suspect of being pure green sunfish.

Green sunfish and their hybrids have white on margins of vertical and pelvic fins. Greensunfish and most of their hybrids have squigly electric-blue lines on pre-operculum and operculum. All greensunfish hybrids have a larger mouth than other Lepomis spp. except greensunfish and warmouth. Second fish has a big mouth and is pudgy looking. Some hybrid green x pumpkinseeds approach the color pattern of the second fish but mouth not as large (I have knowns of this hybrid now for comparison). The fish also has the rubbery / highly flexible look of green sunfish, warmouth, redspotted and blackspotted sunfishes that readily penetrate heavy vegetation. I also have green x redspotted hybrid color images and pickled specimens of same. They are not green like second fish, more of a brown. From this point it more to experience in that I have made the hybrid I think your second fish is as well as many others hybrids involving green sunfish. A piece of morphological evidence to firm up or bring into question my diagnosis is the presence or absence of a tooth patch on the tongue. The hybrid green x warmouth will have a tooth patch but it (tooth patch) will be less developed than in a pure warmouth. We need to see the teeth. Otherwise get a geneticists. A Coulter counter or better yet a flow cytometer could be used to determine the number of chromosome sets. I am loosing track because my wife making answer U.S. census questions that I do not rightly no answers to, therefore I stop. Show the horses (fish's) mouth or hold your piece.

How did you even get those this time of year? It must be freezing in Minnesota.

How did you even get those this time of year? It must be freezing in Minnesota.

Please read carefully in the first post, these pictures come from a forum...that means these fish are not my fish. And theres some people still ICEfishing for these sunnies in Minnesota

Butch, are Warmouth even found in the drainage these fish were found? What water body were these photos taken?
This section of the forum requires you post location (at least general location) for a pretty good reason.

From the original thread:

I caught this little guy dip netting about 1 month ago. He has caught in a lake with bluegill, green sunfish and warmouth. In the month i have had him he has dominated my tank of sunfish fry and has grown significantly. After looking at him and doing research i now belive that he is a green sunfish/warmouth hybrid.

The poster's location is listed as California.

Original thread? I don't see it? Is this is spin off thread from another topic on this forum or is this another one of those threads created on a forum where anything and everything gets posted and then crossed over here?
When topics like this are created, we are unable to communicate properly with the actual author of the topic and presumably the photographer. If the author of the original topic wants to come here for and ID they are perfectly welcome.

Original thread? I don't see it? Is this is spin off thread from another topic on this forum or is this another one of those threads created on a forum where anything and everything gets posted and then crossed over here?
When topics like this are created, we are unable to communicate properly with the actual author of the topic and presumably the photographer. If the author of the original topic wants to come here for and ID they are perfectly welcome.

It is from a topic on another forum.