Mycobacterium marinum

Anyone have any treatment ideas for this disease besides euthanasia?
Over the past few days I have been watching my 55 gallon tank of Fundulus escambiae, Fundulus chrystotus, Enneacanthus gloriosus, Noturus gyrinus, Noturus leptacanthus, be destroyed by Mycobacterium marinum/Fish Tuberculosis. At first I tried removing all the infected fish in order to save the rest. I had just set up a pond intending to breed some of these as they are very difficult for me to get. -also, I though that would be pretty sweet. I would remove one or two fish and then discover more infected ones hours after giving the tank a good look-over.
At this point I have lost my darters (not mentioned above)and my other fish are all showing symptoms, so I put the ones I had removed back in the tank. I medicated the whole tank with Maracyn two (damned expensive stuff!)in a last ditch effort to save my buddies.
This tank is a little overcrowded, but it is heavily planted, beautifully aquascaped with plenty of hiding spaces, the water parameters are kept at near perfect, and the fish are fed a very healthy and varied diet.
I have been doing a lot of thinking about the cause. It could have come from another tank which has Gouramis and Danios- I took some plant cuttings from it, but I am now thinking that it came from the 25cent bluefin killies that I got from the feeder tank of my LFS. Yep, I was psyched! I got eight small bluefin killies and one tiny bluespotted sunfish from the feeder fish tank for $2.25. The tiny Bluespot is the last healthy bluespot I have- BTW.
First I put the bf killies in my fancy guppy tank. When I ID'd them I moved them to my Native 55. My guppies are all dying off of fish TB too, so that is why I believe it was the bf killies that brought the disease.
Damn I wish I still had a quarantine tank! I guess fish TB can be around for monthst without showing itself though....

Rainbowfish folks have been dealing with this for a long time. TB is pretty much nearly impossible to get rid of and it realistically can't be treated in fish, best of to sterilize everything and start over.

Adrian Tappin has a book on rainbowfishes with tons of info about myco. You can download it here, http://www.mediafire...inbowfishes.pdf

He also has some info on his webpage at http://members.optus...helmon/Myco.htm

Cheers
Peter

Any idea know how long the pathogen can survive in a tank empty of fish? It'd be a shame to "sterilize" a heavily planted tank.

Elijah, I can replace Fundulus chrysotus and Lucania goodei in pretty much any number for cost of shipping when you're ready for them. I may also be able to get a few Enneacanthus gloriosus, but they are less predictable.

Any idea know how long the pathogen can survive in a tank empty of fish? It'd be a shame to "sterilize" a heavily planted tank.

Elijah, I can replace Fundulus chrysotus and Lucania goodei in pretty much any number for cost of shipping when you're ready for them. I may also be able to get a few Enneacanthus gloriosus, but they are less predictable.

Gzeiger,
It seems that mycobacterium can live in the tank indefinitely. All I have read says you have to break down the tank and use hardcore pool sanitizer to sterilize everything. Bleach apparently is not enough. I put a lot of time into aquascaping and growing the plants from cuttings for this tank. I need to get some photos of it in case... Anyway, it would be a real bummer. I found one web site that recommended a possible medication treatment, but even they say chances are slim.
Thank you very much for the offer of fish! I will be in touch.

Diana Walstad has a good Mycobacterium article online. She emphasizes promoting a good diversity of other healthy bacteria to outcompete Myco, which grow best in the absence of other bacteria.
http://www.atlasbook...mycoarticle.pdf

Total multi-species die-offs like you describe are rare. In my tanks it tends to affect one or a few fish that slowly get weaker over several months. A tank can go for years with no apparent disease, then an old fish starts showing symtoms (jaw deformity, head/body sore, weight loss, pop-eye, color darkening).

My personal conclusion is there's no practical way to eradicate Myco or prevent it from getting back into my 30-ish tanks. The Raleigh WTP has detected Myco in tap water pipes, so its probably common in lakes and streams around here. So i just accept that I'll have to live with it, and try to keep my fishes' immune systems strong via good water quality and diet. When old fish start showing Myco symptoms, I remove them so they dont boost the Myco population in the tank. I've gotten healthy fry from kribensis, curviceps cichlids, and emperor tetras that showed early Myco symptoms and lived for up to a year after symptoms first appeared.

And here's my thumb with possible Myco infection a few months ago. I have kept aquariums for 44 years (since age 6). I first learned to diagnose Myco in fish in the mid-80s, and realized then that I'd been seeing Myco symptoms in fish (usually my oldest fish) for many years before that. So in all those years of exposure (including many necropsies), I've only gotten myself infected once, as far as I know. It was right where the siphon hose presses into my thumb when I vacuum tanks.

When I saw the heading I thought it was gonna be about injurys to us. Something I worry about as my skin is rough and frequently cut all over. My doctor told me stories about aquarium keepers ending up with nasty tissue damage.
Luckily I have never had it. A legacy of my years in wastewater, I'm immune to everything but heartbreak.

I remember way back when they called it AIDS and it made store bought anglefish and guppies deadly carriers that always looked good in the shop and wreaked havok later.
A big part of why I went 100% native. I won't put anything live from a pet shop in any tank, haven't in years.
Disinfected tap water theoretically should be safe but you should know exactly how your city disinfects. It's not an organism that is tested for as part of EPA regulations.

BTW, a few months ago I pointed out to the teenage clerk at a chain store that the rainbows were turning black and they better take that tank off the system. She said she'd ask her manager tomorrow.

Rainbowfish folks have been dealing with this for a long time. TB is pretty much nearly impossible to get rid of and it realistically can't be treated in fish, best of to sterilize everything and start over.

Adrian Tappin has a book on rainbowfishes with tons of info about myco. You can download it here, http://www.mediafire...inbowfishes.pdf

He also has some info on his webpage at http://members.optus...helmon/Myco.htm

Cheers
Peter

Thanks for the info!
I have managed to get my native tank back to health. In the end I only lost four fish, but spent a lot of $ on medications.
I used Jungle Fungus Clear, Sulfathiazole, and finally two rounds of Minocycline/Maracyn Two. I was going to try Kanamycin, but I came home from work one day and found my fish looked completely healthy. I am keeping my fingers crossed!
Minocycline, and Kanamycin in succession were the only recommended treatment I could find before reading Walstad's article.
I still have a tank of Endlers Livebearers that has it, but I am not willing to spend any more $ on this tank. I have dosed it three times with Jungle Fungus Clear and Sera Protazol a couple of times, doesn't even touch it.
Diana Walstad rocks my world! I read the link below from Gerald a bit ago (unfortunately, after spending more $ than what I could afford on meds!) and she makes a lot of sense. When I can, I will get a UV filter to run on my tanks for a bit.

Edited by Elijah, 06 May 2010 - 01:00 AM.

Any idea know how long the pathogen can survive in a tank empty of fish? It'd be a shame to "sterilize" a heavily planted tank.

Elijah, I can replace Fundulus chrysotus and Lucania goodei in pretty much any number for cost of shipping when you're ready for them. I may also be able to get a few Enneacanthus gloriosus, but they are less predictable.

I have managed to get my tank back to health. I'm keeping my fingers crossed,but things are looking good right now. I really have a hard time imagining breaking this tank down!

Diana Walstad has a good Mycobacterium article online. She emphasizes promoting a good diversity of other healthy bacteria to outcompete Myco, which grow best in the absence of other bacteria.
http://www.atlasbook...mycoarticle.pdf

Total multi-species die-offs like you describe are rare. In my tanks it tends to affect one or a few fish that slowly get weaker over several months. A tank can go for years with no apparent disease, then an old fish starts showing symtoms (jaw deformity, head/body sore, weight loss, pop-eye, color darkening).

My personal conclusion is there's no practical way to eradicate Myco or prevent it from getting back into my 30-ish tanks. The Raleigh WTP has detected Myco in tap water pipes, so its probably common in lakes and streams around here. So i just accept that I'll have to live with it, and try to keep my fishes' immune systems strong via good water quality and diet. When old fish start showing Myco symptoms, I remove them so they dont boost the Myco population in the tank. I've gotten healthy fry from kribensis, curviceps cichlids, and emperor tetras that showed early Myco symptoms and lived for up to a year after symptoms first appeared.

And here's my thumb with possible Myco infection a few months ago. I have kept aquariums for 44 years (since age 6). I first learned to diagnose Myco in fish in the mid-80s, and realized then that I'd been seeing Myco symptoms in fish (usually my oldest fish) for many years before that. So in all those years of exposure (including many necropsies), I've only gotten myself infected once, as far as I know. It was right where the siphon hose presses into my thumb when I vacuum tanks.

Diana Walstad rocks my world! I have 'Ecology of the PLANTED AQUARIUM' and have learned much from it. I wish I had read this link earlier, but I was in too much of a panic by that time. She is really bringing some seriously solid info to the aquarists world! Many unresolved issues I have seen in the past make sense now.
I still have some bumps on my finger that itch pretty good but my hand seems to be ok. It looks like the possible Myco is going away.
Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't break my tank down and euthanize the fish! Most of my Bluespots looked like there was no way they could possibly live. They got to the point where it was a gaping sore, bloody looking mess. I was going to give it one more day and I came home that evening to find them looking almost as if nothing had happened.
so far so good...

Edited by Elijah, 06 May 2010 - 01:21 AM.

When I saw the heading I thought it was gonna be about injurys to us. Something I worry about as my skin is rough and frequently cut all over. My doctor told me stories about aquarium keepers ending up with nasty tissue damage.
Luckily I have never had it. A legacy of my years in wastewater, I'm immune to everything but heartbreak.

I remember way back when they called it AIDS and it made store bought anglefish and guppies deadly carriers that always looked good in the shop and wreaked havok later.
A big part of why I went 100% native. I won't put anything live from a pet shop in any tank, haven't in years.
Disinfected tap water theoretically should be safe but you should know exactly how your city disinfects. It's not an organism that is tested for as part of EPA regulations.

BTW, a few months ago I pointed out to the teenage clerk at a chain store that the rainbows were turning black and they better take that tank off the system. She said she'd ask her manager tomorrow.

He. He. That's the pet store for you. The other day I found myself having a long talk with one of my LFS employees about his planted tank. I was the one giving him a bunch of advice. The cool thing was that he was psyched!

Great news Elijah! I've had fish survive for many months with Myco-looking head/body sores, but never seen one "recover". Please give details of your treatment history -- the part that "worked". I'll give Minocycline a try next time I see Myco-like symptoms.

Keep in mind its probably not gone; just stopped growing. Myco granulomas in the fish and free-living Myco elsewhere in the tank could get active again if/when stress, age. diet imbalance, etc depress their immunity.

I've had tanks appear to be Myco-free for years, then it can reappear in a few months after I add certain Myco-sensitive fish especially apistogrammas, rams, gouramis, badis, bettas. I've never actually found Myco granulomas in any of my N.Amer fish, but I suspect it when I see jaw deformity and pinched-belly symptoms in shiners and dace, especially older ones.

BTW - I pour out tank water in the yard and put fish in trash or compost, NOT down the toilet. A typical wastewater treatment plant will not effectively kill Myco.

Great news Elijah! I've had fish survive for many months with Myco-looking head/body sores, but never seen one "recover". Please give details of your treatment history -- the part that "worked". I'll give Minocycline a try next time I see Myco-like symptoms.

Keep in mind its probably not gone; just stopped growing. Myco granulomas in the fish and free-living Myco elsewhere in the tank could get active again if/when stress, age. diet imbalance, etc depress their immunity.

I've had tanks appear to be Myco-free for years, then it can reappear in a few months after I add certain Myco-sensitive fish especially apistogrammas, rams, gouramis, badis, bettas. I've never actually found Myco granulomas in any of my N.Amer fish, but I suspect it when I see jaw deformity and pinched-belly symptoms in shiners and dace, especially older ones.

BTW - I pour out tank water in the yard and put fish in trash or compost, NOT down the toilet. A typical wastewater treatment plant will not effectively kill Myco.

I used Jungle Fungus Clear, Sulfathiazole, and finally two rounds of Minocycline/Maracyn Two. I was going to try Kanamycin, but I came home from work one day and found my fish looked completely healthy. I am keeping my fingers crossed! Minocycline and Kanamycin in succession were the only recommended treatment that I found before reading the Walstad article. I am going to invest in a UV sterilizer eventually.
I have been freezing and then throwing the fish in the trash, I didn't think about the water though. I am not too worried about it as our water treatment facility uses UV sterilization before releasing the water.

I realize this is an old thread, but I love posting these pics! My arm after lancing and draining a very large granuloma. It was never cultured, but Augmentin didn't faze it and Minocycline did the trick, so anecdotally it could very well have been M. marinum. A bit of background would be that I maintain aquariums for a living, was battling a tank of death where everything I put in wasted away, and I had a new kitten at the time! And this was the second one in about two months, both on the extremities. The first one was handled at the ER, but I was paying out of pocket so when it re-occurred I didn't really have the money to go through it again. Fortunately a friend mentioned the possibility of M. marinum and after a bit of research, home surgery and some arm twisting of a pharmacist friend I managed to clear it. Bon apetit'!