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Headwaters Little River

Started by Guest_Uland_* , Apr 26 2010 10:29 PM

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15 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 10:29 PM

Mark Hylton and I recently traveled to Missouri and came home with some photos.
The Little River and it's tribs were pretty well flooded as expected this time of year so we went as far upstream as possible and I could use some help with some of the fish from here.
This water was ditched and lined with what I assume to be dormant hibiscus . The water was so high and muddy, I'm afraid I can't say much more that that.
This first fish really surprised me since they were all very small (under 2") yet appear to be adults. They were almost transparent when viewed from above.
Each photo is a different fish and I get 33-34 LL scales and 7-8 anal rays.

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fish #236.2

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fish # 372.1

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fish # 577.1

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fish # 616.1

I have some idea what this fish is but I have many reasons to doubt my gut on this one.

I'll have some other fish I need help with after we sort this one out.

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#2 Guest_Casper Cox_*

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 10:51 PM

It's a somewhat educated guess from my experiences here, and i know i saw them while camping in MO back after the 07 convention. Odd that MO has disjunct populations of my TN fish. Interesting.
Telescope.
Big eye, elegant, railroad tracks.
But im not the one to be sure.

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#3 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 07:45 AM

Howdy Casper,
We saw many Telescope shiners this trip but further West. We took a few photos of them and I'll post later. I'm certain these are not Telescope shiners.
This was a lowland ditch with a mud bottom. The minnows were caught with Blackstripe topminnow, Cypress darter and Redspotted sunfish among others.

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#4 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:48 AM

Are those Ghost Shiners? They have little pigmentation, are fairly small, have a spot on top of the head and were found in sluggish, muddy waters.

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#5 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 11:38 AM

Are those Ghost Shiners? They have little pigmentation, are fairly small, have a spot on top of the head and were found in sluggish, muddy waters.

Bruce,
Ghost Shiners had crossed my mind but recalled from my short study prior to the trip that Ghost shiners are not present in the Little River.

N. Wickliffi had come to mind but not supported by description key or location either (I've never caught Wickliffi).
This fish keys as Notropis volucellus but appears different from what I'm used to. Casual observations here- much smaller, nearly transparent from above, larger eye, longer dorsal fin and odd patter on scales.

Thanks for the PM's!

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#6 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 12:21 PM

Yeah, you're probably right. One of the traits of Ghost Shiners is a high, pointed dorsal which your fish seem to have. But we know there's always a lot of variation between populations in a species.

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#7 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 02:11 PM

Heck I don't know, I've never caught a Ghost shiner and we've all seen books falter from time to time...for all I know, these are Ghost shiners.
Assuming they are mimic shiners for a moment, I could accept this as variation.

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#8 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:18 PM

Same location and I want to call this a weed shiner (Notropis texanus).
Anybody have an idea?

Posted Image

http://farm5.static....20dbcfee5_b.jpg

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#9 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:37 AM

The first series looks like volucellus to me. Scales are twice as tall as they are wide, got that funny = track going down the lateral line. I would defer to anyone who knows the cyprinds better than me tho.

The second is a weed shiner. Has the lateral stripe that extends into the chin and the solid dot at the caudal base.

Todd

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#10 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:32 AM

I'll tend to agree with Todd about both questions.

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#11 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:08 AM

Thanks guys. Here is my last fish.
I'd guess L. umbratilis but keeping me fingers crossed for L. fumeus. I've never caught L. fumeus so I grabbed the Lythrurus with the weakest dorsal pigment.

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#12 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 03:37 PM

That's a really tough one to say for sure. But it just looks too deep bodied to me to be fumeus.

I was looking in Ross for other characteristics between the two (I imagine you already looked in Pflieger?). The thing I keyed in on his description for fumeus was "the snout is bluntly pointed and is noticeably smaller than eye diameter."

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but I hope it helps

Todd

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#13 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:06 PM

Thanks Todd. I didn't expect this or any L. fumeus ID to be easy. Since I've never seen them nor recall one being ID'd on the forum, I thought I would post it and see what is said. I always think it's a good idea to see what folks might use to help distinguish similar fish since often members have found some neat tricks to help a bit in ID not found in books.

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#14 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 10:38 PM

Uland I think your gut is correct on those first fish. I'm unfamiliar with the location but is this close to the Mississippi or some other large river? If so I would say those are N. wickliffi without a doubt. Here is the one I photoed last week that I have had in a tank since last fall from the Ohio River...

Channel Shiner Ohio River Pike Island tail Water Nov 2009 by BZ.JPG 31.24KB 0 downloads

Channel Shiner anal finOhio River Pike Island tail Water Nov 2009 by BZ.JPG 153.18KB 0 downloads

Channel Shiner dorsal viewOhio River Pike Island tail Water Nov 2009 by BZ.JPG 81.09KB 0 downloads

You should be getting 8 anal rays on most of them but maybe not all and there should be no obvious mid lateral stripe in front of the dorsal fin and it likely will be more prominent behind the fin but still not obvious. These are small fish even as adults and do have a somewhat robust look like a ghost shiner.

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#15 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 07:31 AM

Brian,

We were as far as you can get from the Mississippi River at least in the Little River, we were in the headwaters. I was really surprised at the nearly transparent body when viewed from above and the small size yet adult shape. I do get 8 anal rays on all but one fish I photographed (but not sure at this time if it's diagnostic).

On the fish I sampled I see some color before and after the dorsal fin that I don't see in your fish. I also recall something about the books mentioning that Wickliffi would have such faint dorsal coloration that cross-hatching would not exist. I see cross-hatching (if I'm not mistaken) on your fish.

BTW great N. Wickliffi photo! I'm not sure where this leaves me with these particular fish but if you have "Fishes of Missouri" Plieger, check out the Little River and all the Volucellus in the Little River! They just didn't look right to me and not the type of water I'm used to seeing them in.

Thanks for your help Brian.

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#16 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 08:34 PM

My impression of the habitat for this species is big water but maybe that is not true for their entire range. I will take a look at fishes of MO tomorrow at work, I have a copy there.