Darter ID

@ first and always i thought this was a male rainbow darter...but for some reason he looks very different from all my other rainbows. i just wanna make sure i know what the fish is. my other rainbows teal stripes go from top to bottom. this one is more blotched.

just thought id show off some pics. this is without a macro. im about to get a macro lens. runs roughly 500 bucks for the nikon d60. so then ill be able to take some very nice close ups

for example....i go ok this is a rainbow

i even can somewhat "Sex" this is a female rainbow...correct?



and now the one i question






its prob just a regional difference. but i just wonder why some look very different.

Your fish in question appears to be one of those variations of the Orangethroat Darter that has come into question recently. I wish I could remember where I saw pictures of them. Maybe it was an AC before I became editor??? Can anyone else help out here?

Brian

I agree. It looks like one of those subspecies of E. spectabile. Anal fin coloration looks more like E. caeruleum though. So I am not 100%.

I agree. It looks like one of those subspecies of E. spectabile. Anal fin coloration looks more like E. caeruleum though. So I am not 100%.

well i must say that this is going to be very interesting. 2 things on this guy he was either collected in schoharie creek in NY or SW VA. SW VA i believe doesnt have rainbows or orangethroats(clincg,south fork holston)....and well schoharie we have just now only discovered the rainbows.

The only thing I can tell ya, if the location of the collection is questioned at all... then the fish and will be questioned also. Any way for you to KNOW where it came from?

The only thing I can tell ya, if the location of the collection is questioned at all... then the fish and will be questioned also. Any way for you to KNOW where it came from?

I'd say it prob came from fox creek, NY. Where rainbows aren't suppose to be and orangethroats arents.

I'd say it prob came from fox creek, NY. Where rainbows aren't suppose to be and orangethroats arents.

I still think it is a form of Etheostoma spectabile The thickness of body in front of spiny dorsal fin, the saddles on the dorsum, bloched pigment spots almost forming a 3shape or "trident", and fin coloration all point this direction. I would really be surprised if this fish was collected in NY, maybe Ohio? I hope someone else can say for sure if I am on-track. Thanks for keeping me on my toes... I hope you find the answer

I still think it is a form of Etheostoma spectabile The thickness of body in front of spiny dorsal fin, the saddles on the dorsum, bloched pigment spots almost forming a 3shape or "trident", and fin coloration all point this direction. I would really be surprised if this fish was collected in NY, maybe Ohio? I hope someone else can say for sure if I am on-track. Thanks for keeping me on my toes... I hope you find the answer

def not in ohio. i have never collected in Ohio. Down in the clinch/holston/new/ area we through back anything that would have been a "rainbow" type fish for the sake of we have a spot in eastern NY. so this def came from fox creek, ny.

def not in ohio. i have never collected in Ohio. Down in the clinch/holston/new/ area we through back anything that would have been a "rainbow" type fish for the sake of we have a spot in eastern NY. so this def came from fox creek, ny.

That is very interesting... I am a PA guy, so I don't know all the distributions for NY but I am stumped. It is definintely an Etheostoma...maybe a hybrid of something?

i snapped some more pics of him. rainbows are new to the area that mike and i collected them at. they are commmon in western NY but invasive in the eastern part

man i really need to figure out where this guy came from

here is another pic i found of him. seems i did get him in fox creek NY.

That's a wicked cool looking fish!!

Brian

This can't be an Orangethroat. If that's the case then mike and I have discovered 2 fish in Eastern NY in a year. Hmm. Tell me the pics you guys exactly need for an ID

I'm no Orangethroat expert, but the pictures you've posted should be good enough for an ID. Anyone out there have a definitive answer on this one???

Brian

I find this fish interesting myself! It just doesn't scream Rainbow to me. But I have been wrong before! Just out of curiosity... by what means have the E. caeruleums been introduced into the Fox Ck. drainage? Possible bait bucket transfer? If so...it is possible that there are others that were released. Darters can be collected with other bait, but not used, due to their fear of hooks I imagine. I look forward to more responses on this one!

I would assume bait bucket release. But what are the chances of a fish being released there and now this established? I think the rivers are connected somehow to western NY. So maybe they just swam? I don't know. Its amazing. I've never seen a darter at a bait shop. Is this common in the midwest?

Darters are sometimes transported with minnows and other bait fish as bycatch. They're not bait themselves, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. California has a few darters for this reason. It could be a 'bait bucket' release, but probably could also be a range expansion through man-made channels (a few of those across NY) and flooding.

At first glance it appears to be some sort of Etheostoma spectabile, but I think it may be a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum. It looks kinda like E. spectabile, because the vertical bars on the side are more vertical than diagonal, like they are in E. caeruleum. Also, there are fewer bars between the tail fin and anal fin, and the bars are wider than they usually are in E. caeruleum. However, if it's an introduction, then E. spectabile seems very unlikely, because it would have to have come from much farther than western NY. There are also two color patterns that don't fit E. caeruleum or E. spectabile and make me think it's a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum.

1) There is a distinct patch of orange on the belly. Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile can get an orangish tint to the belly, but I've never seen a distinct orange patch as in this fish. This patch is common in E. variatum.

2) There is a metallic iridescence on the sides that Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile do not get, but E. variatum does.

Additionally, if these are introductions, or invaders, from western NY, then E. variatum is likely to be involved. Etheostoma variatum is in western NY and likes the same habitat E. caeruleum likes, so it would probably be subject to the same event that led to the E. caeruleum introduction.

So, are there any E. variatum in the creek this darter was sampled from? If not, the introduction may have been very recent or the E. variatum may not have established after introduction, and now the only thing left are a few hybrid individuals.

Just a guess based on the pics.

Ben

Darters are sometimes transported with minnows and other bait fish as bycatch. They're not bait themselves, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. California has a few darters for this reason. It could be a 'bait bucket' release, but probably could also be a range expansion through man-made channels (a few of those across NY) and flooding.

At first glance it appears to be some sort of Etheostoma spectabile, but I think it may be a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum. It looks kinda like E. spectabile, because the vertical bars on the side are more vertical than diagonal, like they are in E. caeruleum. Also, there are fewer bars between the tail fin and anal fin, and the bars are wider than they usually are in E. caeruleum. However, if it's an introduction, then E. spectabile seems very unlikely, because it would have to have come from much farther than western NY. There are also two color patterns that don't fit E. caeruleum or E. spectabile and make me think it's a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum.

1) There is a distinct patch of orange on the belly. Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile can get an orangish tint to the belly, but I've never seen a distinct orange patch as in this fish. This patch is common in E. variatum.

2) There is a metallic iridescence on the sides that Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile do not get, but E. variatum does.

Additionally, if these are introductions, or invaders, from western NY, then E. variatum is likely to be involved. Etheostoma variatum is in western NY and likes the same habitat E. caeruleum likes, so it would probably be subject to the same event that led to the E. caeruleum introduction.

So, are there any E. variatum in the creek this darter was sampled from? If not, the introduction may have been very recent or the E. variatum may not have established after introduction, and now the only thing left are a few hybrid individuals.

Just a guess based on the pics.

Ben

I can see what you are saying. If it was E. spectabile it would definitely have been from further West than W. NY. Interesting fish to say the least. I did notice the head is not as "spade" shaped as E. caeruleum normally is. It has a little more of a sub-terminal look going on, much like E. variatum. Also the dorsal saddles are present, not in the big three like E. variatum, but more like the 7 of E. zonale. I know E. caeruleum can show saddles but from what I've seen, not usually very distinct like the ones in the pic.
Maybe we will all have to agree on Etheostoma species, that is until it dies and can be pickled!!!

Just too hard with only pixs
Tim

E. variatum is not in that area either. just fantail, greensides, tesselated, logperch, fantail. i suppose i have me a "special" fish. i did have a varigate before. but there is no way that he and a female rainbow produced one fish and its this big in 6 months. so thats not the case.

that is one beautiful darter! Whatever it ends up being, put me down for 3... lol