Darter ID
#1 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 15 May 2010 - 08:33 PM
just thought id show off some pics. this is without a macro. im about to get a macro lens. runs roughly 500 bucks for the nikon d60. so then ill be able to take some very nice close ups
for example....i go ok this is a rainbow
i even can somewhat "Sex" this is a female rainbow...correct?
and now the one i question
its prob just a regional difference. but i just wonder why some look very different.
#2 Guest_BTDarters_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 01:09 AM
Brian
#3 Guest_darter1_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:18 AM
#4 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:29 AM
well i must say that this is going to be very interesting. 2 things on this guy he was either collected in schoharie creek in NY or SW VA. SW VA i believe doesnt have rainbows or orangethroats(clincg,south fork holston)....and well schoharie we have just now only discovered the rainbows.I agree. It looks like one of those subspecies of E. spectabile. Anal fin coloration looks more like E. caeruleum though. So I am not 100%.
#5 Guest_darter1_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 10:37 AM
#6 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 10:41 AM
I'd say it prob came from fox creek, NY. Where rainbows aren't suppose to be and orangethroats arents.The only thing I can tell ya, if the location of the collection is questioned at all... then the fish and will be questioned also. Any way for you to KNOW where it came from?
#7 Guest_darter1_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 01:46 PM
I'd say it prob came from fox creek, NY. Where rainbows aren't suppose to be and orangethroats arents.
I still think it is a form of Etheostoma spectabile The thickness of body in front of spiny dorsal fin, the saddles on the dorsum, bloched pigment spots almost forming a 3shape or "trident", and fin coloration all point this direction. I would really be surprised if this fish was collected in NY, maybe Ohio? I hope someone else can say for sure if I am on-track. Thanks for keeping me on my toes... I hope you find the answer
#8 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 01:50 PM
def not in ohio. i have never collected in Ohio. Down in the clinch/holston/new/ area we through back anything that would have been a "rainbow" type fish for the sake of we have a spot in eastern NY. so this def came from fox creek, ny.I still think it is a form of Etheostoma spectabile The thickness of body in front of spiny dorsal fin, the saddles on the dorsum, bloched pigment spots almost forming a 3shape or "trident", and fin coloration all point this direction. I would really be surprised if this fish was collected in NY, maybe Ohio? I hope someone else can say for sure if I am on-track. Thanks for keeping me on my toes... I hope you find the answer
#9 Guest_darter1_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 02:50 PM
def not in ohio. i have never collected in Ohio. Down in the clinch/holston/new/ area we through back anything that would have been a "rainbow" type fish for the sake of we have a spot in eastern NY. so this def came from fox creek, ny.
That is very interesting... I am a PA guy, so I don't know all the distributions for NY but I am stumped. It is definintely an Etheostoma...maybe a hybrid of something?
#10 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:49 PM
man i really need to figure out where this guy came from
#11 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 19 May 2010 - 07:07 PM
#12 Guest_BTDarters_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:26 AM
Brian
#13 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:46 AM
#14 Guest_BTDarters_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:50 AM
Brian
#15 Guest_darter1_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:27 AM
#16 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:06 AM
#17 Guest_bpkeck_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:52 AM
At first glance it appears to be some sort of Etheostoma spectabile, but I think it may be a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum. It looks kinda like E. spectabile, because the vertical bars on the side are more vertical than diagonal, like they are in E. caeruleum. Also, there are fewer bars between the tail fin and anal fin, and the bars are wider than they usually are in E. caeruleum. However, if it's an introduction, then E. spectabile seems very unlikely, because it would have to have come from much farther than western NY. There are also two color patterns that don't fit E. caeruleum or E. spectabile and make me think it's a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum.
1) There is a distinct patch of orange on the belly. Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile can get an orangish tint to the belly, but I've never seen a distinct orange patch as in this fish. This patch is common in E. variatum.
2) There is a metallic iridescence on the sides that Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile do not get, but E. variatum does.
Additionally, if these are introductions, or invaders, from western NY, then E. variatum is likely to be involved. Etheostoma variatum is in western NY and likes the same habitat E. caeruleum likes, so it would probably be subject to the same event that led to the E. caeruleum introduction.
So, are there any E. variatum in the creek this darter was sampled from? If not, the introduction may have been very recent or the E. variatum may not have established after introduction, and now the only thing left are a few hybrid individuals.
Just a guess based on the pics.
Ben
#18 Guest_darter1_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 01:09 PM
Darters are sometimes transported with minnows and other bait fish as bycatch. They're not bait themselves, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. California has a few darters for this reason. It could be a 'bait bucket' release, but probably could also be a range expansion through man-made channels (a few of those across NY) and flooding.
At first glance it appears to be some sort of Etheostoma spectabile, but I think it may be a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum. It looks kinda like E. spectabile, because the vertical bars on the side are more vertical than diagonal, like they are in E. caeruleum. Also, there are fewer bars between the tail fin and anal fin, and the bars are wider than they usually are in E. caeruleum. However, if it's an introduction, then E. spectabile seems very unlikely, because it would have to have come from much farther than western NY. There are also two color patterns that don't fit E. caeruleum or E. spectabile and make me think it's a hybrid between E. caeruleum and E. variatum.
1) There is a distinct patch of orange on the belly. Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile can get an orangish tint to the belly, but I've never seen a distinct orange patch as in this fish. This patch is common in E. variatum.
2) There is a metallic iridescence on the sides that Etheostoma caeruleum and E. spectabile do not get, but E. variatum does.
Additionally, if these are introductions, or invaders, from western NY, then E. variatum is likely to be involved. Etheostoma variatum is in western NY and likes the same habitat E. caeruleum likes, so it would probably be subject to the same event that led to the E. caeruleum introduction.
So, are there any E. variatum in the creek this darter was sampled from? If not, the introduction may have been very recent or the E. variatum may not have established after introduction, and now the only thing left are a few hybrid individuals.
Just a guess based on the pics.
Ben
I can see what you are saying. If it was E. spectabile it would definitely have been from further West than W. NY. Interesting fish to say the least. I did notice the head is not as "spade" shaped as E. caeruleum normally is. It has a little more of a sub-terminal look going on, much like E. variatum. Also the dorsal saddles are present, not in the big three like E. variatum, but more like the 7 of E. zonale. I know E. caeruleum can show saddles but from what I've seen, not usually very distinct like the ones in the pic.
Maybe we will all have to agree on Etheostoma species, that is until it dies and can be pickled!!!
Just too hard with only pixs
Tim
#19 Guest_bumpylemon_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 02:31 PM
#20 Guest_NVCichlids_*
Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:59 PM
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