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Collecting mosses


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#1 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 01:11 PM

I have been out in streams and marshes collecting mosses. I have collected some that looked as if they were often under water in marshy areas and others that I found growing submerged. Not sure if they will all work under water. I have collected many different types in New England, including Willow Moss which I have in several tanks.
Anyone have experience with collected mosses in the aquarium?
Thanks!

#2 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 01:20 PM

Yup.
With growing submerged plants, you have to keep in mind that new plant tissue that grows underwater can look different than the bits that grew above water, so often you think you have more species than you really do because you don't recognize either the emersed or submerged forms. Marsilea quadrifolia is a good example of that; above water it's a common clover plant but underwater it looks almost the same as Glossostigma elatinoides.

Mosses do best in low lighting and they grow slowly. Algae competes with them and in high temperature, high lighting situations, cladophora will smother the moss and completely envelop it. Completely remove any cladophora from your tank before you try to grow moss in it or the cladophora will win.

A good way to grow submersed moss is, surprisingly, in an empty little bowl on a window sill. You just leave it alone for a looong time, and when you come back it has doubled in size. If you're used to other aquatic plants, the growth rate of mosses and anubias (which grow submerged for half of the year in the wild) will surprise you because it is much much slower, practically on a different time scale.

I think the people who have the most knowledge about submerged mosses are the folk at Aquatic Magic, a company based in Singapore that mass exports aquatic mosses. They have dozens of species, and I bought some flame moss and singapore moss from them, followed their instructions, and grew them with good results.
Their care page for flame moss, shown here http://aqmagic.com/s...ium-plants-moss recommends a wide variety of lighting (it doesn't really matter) and room temperatures-ish (again, it doesn't really matter). The growth is slow either way. No CO2 needed because it doesn't really improve the growth rate.

Edited by EricaWieser, 21 November 2010 - 02:01 PM.


#3 Guest_v369_*

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 09:05 PM

one of my favorite native mosses to use is fissadens(phionex moss). A common aquatic moss found in streams and ponds that does very well in aqurium settings.it does well in low light, grows at a medium pace, can survive being dried for periods of time, and anchors readily to wood or stone.it is also tolerant of a ph range of 6.5-7.3 . fissadens also will do well in tanks with a moderate current and higher oxygen levle wich makes it amazingly versatile. :rolleyes:

Edited by v369, 21 November 2010 - 09:07 PM.


#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 10:32 PM

one of my favorite native mosses to use is fissadens(phionex moss).

*squee!* It's so cute :D
http://www.aquamoss....fontanus-08.jpg

#5 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:58 AM

Not all mosses lend themselves to growing submerged. Sometimes, the ones that are encounted underwater are only submerged due to recent weather conditions and normally are at or above the water's edge. So don't feel bad if some of them don't make it. The ones that do sure are nice.

#6 Guest_v369_*

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 08:49 PM

+1 native planter!
yes. erica if you can find some fissadens its awsome ! is a true aquatic. and is cultured very easily from cuttings. ill try and get some pics of mine this week and post.(forgot to charge camera battery)

Edited by v369, 22 November 2010 - 08:50 PM.


#7 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 12:12 AM

one of my favorite native mosses to use is fissadens(phionex moss). A common aquatic moss found in streams and ponds that does very well in aqurium settings.it does well in low light, grows at a medium pace, can survive being dried for periods of time, and anchors readily to wood or stone.it is also tolerant of a ph range of 6.5-7.3 . fissadens also will do well in tanks with a moderate current and higher oxygen levle wich makes it amazingly versatile. :rolleyes:

Ah, yes I have been searching for this moss, but according to a map I found on line it exists in Maine and southern New York, but not in Vermont (where I live) or New Hampshire.
I am trying to get my LFS to get some, but they are wicked slackers. I might order some but it is overpriced for a 2"x2" square in my opinion -online.
I am also just very interested in learning which native mosses will grow under water. I am equally into aquascaping as I am into native fish.

#8 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 12:18 AM

Not all mosses lend themselves to growing submerged. Sometimes, the ones that are encounted underwater are only submerged due to recent weather conditions and normally are at or above the water's edge. So don't feel bad if some of them don't make it. The ones that do sure are nice.

Yeah, I have found a few that are just rotting and others that are growing very nicely. Have not found one that stays low and covers the substrate yet, but would like to.

#9 Guest_v369_*

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 06:49 PM

[quote name='Elijah' timestamp='1290575576' post='83966']
Ah, yes I have been searching for this moss, but according to a map I found on line it exists in Maine and southern New York, but not in Vermont (where I live) or New Hampshire.



i collected my original ones in MA.(some in berkshires and some in hampden wilbraham area)
i may have some small clumps avaible in about 4 to 6 weeks. just trimmed mine and have tied the cuttings to small rocks and drift wood and moved them to other tanks to culture. email me if your would like a clump once they are established.

#10 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:24 AM

Well I have just been going around to marshy and swampy areas collecting all kinds of moss and seeing how it does submerged for a while. Some is dying off, some is sending out plenty of new fronds and some seems to be existing.
I am currently fascinated with moss and have set up a small tank with mostly different types of moss and a few anubias, with a few sagittarius and bacopa in the back. I do not have any fish in this tank yet, but I do have Ammonia. My tank is a Walstad set up and I am surprised by this. Usually my Walstad set ups are instantly cycled. Could it be from moss decaying underneath?

#11 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:19 AM

Well I have just been going around to marshy and swampy areas collecting all kinds of moss and seeing how it does submerged for a while. Some is dying off, some is sending out plenty of new fronds and some seems to be existing.
I am currently fascinated with moss and have set up a small tank with mostly different types of moss and a few anubias, with a few sagittarius and bacopa in the back. I do not have any fish in this tank yet, but I do have Ammonia. My tank is a Walstad set up and I am surprised by this. Usually my Walstad set ups are instantly cycled. Could it be from moss decaying underneath?


1. Have you seen Shyamalan's The Happening? That movie where the plants get mad at people, but are stationary, so they can't do anything about it but release chemicals to kill the humans? That movie? That is a really great mental image for what plants of different species do to one another in confined bodies of water, for example the aquarium. They commit chemical warfare on one another; there's a whole section on which plant wins over which one in Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. So the downside of mixing all those plant species means that some of the mosses that would be able to survive underwater are dying because of the plant chemical warfare.

2. Does your tap water have ammonia? Are you adding fish flakes or other sources of protein to the tank? Is there a large amount of decaying material in the tank? Ammonia is a simple form of nitrogen that is created when more complex molecules involving nitrogen (for example proteins) degrade. Your tank wouldn't be able to degrade the ammonia into nitrite and then nitrate ( http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm ) unless there was a large population of nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria present. Walstad tanks are sometimes "instantly cycled" because the soil that they use as a substrate contained a starter seed of these beneficial bacteria. It's the grab and scoop method of obtaining a large number of bacteria, as opposed to the slow exponential population doubling that an unseeded or only mildly seeded tank has to go through. If you didn't start your tank with a soil substrate, then it wouldn't have gotten that nice large population of beneficial bacteria that Walstad tanks are famous for. The plants aren't where the bacteria come from, it's the "live soil" much like saltwater keepers have "live rock".

Also, my friend Andrew the bio major says that aquatic plants prefer ammonium over nitrates as far as their food source goes. So if your plants were growing, they would be taking up that ammonia concentration and you wouldn't be able to measure it. Here, he sent me the link: http://www.aquabotan..._filtration.htm

Edited by EricaWieser, 03 December 2010 - 02:22 AM.


#12 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:26 AM

I am surprised you are getting ammonia readings. What sort of soil are you using, and how long has it been underwater? Is there any chance that it had been sterilized prior to use? Or perhaps it had fertilizers in it (like Miracle-Gro potting soil)? Or maybe a huuuuge amount of easily degradeable organic material? The only other thing I can think of is if your tap water is treated with chloramines. That can introduce a heck of a lot of ammonia into the tank. If you are treating with a dechlorinator that handles chloramines, the resulting ammonia will be rendered non-toxic to fish, but will still register on most ammonia test kits.

Walstad's book is a nice introduction for beginners, but I have problems with parts of it. A lot of it is conjecture. Educated conjecture, yes, but not things that should neccessarily be taken as fact. For example, it recommends not to use deep substrates. Lots of people do (like me), with excellent results. Many of her statements are based on experiments that didn't have enough repetitions to really be able to draw conclusions.

I have a problem with the phytotoxicity statements she makes. Sure, some plants do produce these compounds, but I would be highly surprised if they were to completely kill another plant on their own in an aquarium. There are very few terrestrial plants that are able to do this even when their compounds are in the soil and not diluted in the water column. A few like black walnut can do this, but not many can completely kill. Most species with phytotoxic compounds are only able to inhibit growth (like some fescues), which helps them then overcrowd the competing species.

It's a very nice book, and on my bookshelf. But parts of it need to be taken with a (large) grain of salt. I would not be surprised if she has changed her mind about some of it.

Elijah, I highly doubt it that any of your mosses are dying due to phytotoxicity and would have otherwise survived.

#13 Guest_v369_*

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:09 PM

+1 to the phytotoxicty being not the cause.most true plants that are posinous to eachother are terestrial many of our invasive species such as spotted knapweed and norway maple(one of the many reasons they are invasive)fall into this category along with any of the native juglans(walnuts/butternuts).

Even with a Walstad type aquarium there is still a nitrogen cycle. the seeded bacteria just help to start an hasten its completion.
if you need extra info on the nitrogen cycle this faq is not bad http://www.fishlore....trogenCycle.htm

unless your declorinator has an ingredient that also binds up the ammonia produced/released it is still toxic to fish and inverts, unless the ammonia content is really high it should not largly affect most plants.




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