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DEAD Tadpoles


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#1 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:49 PM

An acquaintance of mine has a 1/2 acre pond on his mountaintop farm here in Chattanooga, TN.
Around this pond were about 18 Sweet Gum trees which he cut down. He carefully painted onto the 3" diameter stumps a product called "Arsenal". He followed the directions with dilution and was not sloppy with the application, carefully applying it only to the newly cut wood surface.
2-4 days later he noticed a lot of dead tadpoles, either Bullfrog or Greenfrog. The trees did not provide shade and no dead fish were observed, so what happened?
His thinking is that somehow this chemical migrated down through the roots to the water table but i dont see how.
I offered to post this to our forum and see if anyone had some knowledge or experience with a similiar event.

Casper

#2 Guest_dmarkley_*

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:14 AM

An acquaintance of mine has a 1/2 acre pond on his mountaintop farm here in Chattanooga, TN.
Around this pond were about 18 Sweet Gum trees which he cut down. He carefully painted onto the 3" diameter stumps a product called "Arsenal". He followed the directions with dilution and was not sloppy with the application, carefully applying it only to the newly cut wood surface.
2-4 days later he noticed a lot of dead tadpoles, either Bullfrog or Greenfrog. The trees did not provide shade and no dead fish were observed, so what happened?
His thinking is that somehow this chemical migrated down through the roots to the water table but i dont see how.
I offered to post this to our forum and see if anyone had some knowledge or experience with a similiar event.

Casper


Arsenal aka Imazapyr, seems to be a quite persistent herbicide. The warnings indicate to keep it away from wetlands or bodies of water. Is it possible it rained and run off took it into the pond? In my opinion (as a chemist and from experience) Roundup is much safer to use since it biodegrades quickly.

#3 littlen

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:21 AM

Casper,

While I am not familiar with that particular product, any number of factors could have lead to the die-off. Any one of them could have been the same as when we see fish die-off in the same way(s). I have kept/raised numerous tadpoles of both species and would say they are quite hardy. So it does seem that something specific happened. But the fact that only tadpoles died is peculiar indeed. Has your friend reported any fish deaths since? Amphibians (and their larva)are usually the first indicators if something is wrong with an environment/ecosystem. So truth be told, it's not all that odd that they were first to go. If the applied chemical (or any secondary metabolites from the cut trees) leached back into the pond after a good rain, we may have a suspect. Being that tadpoles tend to stick to shallow water near the edges, it wouldn't be surprising *IF said chemicals made their way to the water that the tads right there at the waters edge would be first to go. Any fish could have easily swam to deeper water to evade 'dead zones'.

I'm sure someone else will chime in (hopefully with some horticulture background) who might be able to elaborate their thoughts on any toxins from the cut trees or the Arsenal.
Nick L.

#4 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:46 AM

I could not get a clean answer on the possibility of rain fall after the application. We are in the period of afternoon thundershowers and one may have occured. I need to point out it was "hundreds" of dead tadpoles. Lots! I will be talking to him soon and relay your thoughts and ask if there are any more die offs, especially any sign of dead fish.
Thank you both so much.
Casper

#5 Guest_exasperatus2002_*

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:13 AM

Amphibians are very sensitive to pollution & evironemtal changes, which is why they're refered as an "indicator" species. Fish are much hardier. Sounds like some accidently got into the pond.

#6 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:17 AM

Amphibians are very sensitive to pollution & evironemtal changes, which is why they're refered as an "indicator" species. Fish are much hardier. Sounds like some accidently got into the pond.


I agree - what your friend experienced sounds similar to what I have seen after rainstorms from agricultural fields with recently-applied pesticides/herbicides.

In addition to the stumps, is it possible that some of the solution was spilled during mixing? Even if further away from the pond, if the landscape drains that way, it could have gotten in the pond if there was a good storm.

#7 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:57 PM

My friend came by the studio today and i shared with him all the responding posts regarding this topic. Thanks to each of you for your suggestions and thoughts.

He has had no / zero fish die, nor have any more tadpoles since the initial event. He assured me that it did not rain the immediate days afterwards and again that he was not sloppy, spilly with the chemical and i believe him. He was very careful, very precise and applied it immediatly upon cutting the small trees, as recommended per the instructions. The 18 small sweet gum trees were located together along a short 12' stretch 3 or 4 feet up the bank from the water's edge. The rest of the pond's perimeter is grassy and was untouched... yet the dead tadpoles were found all along the 1/2 acre pond's edge.

I think it is going to remain a mystery but he knows to be very very VERY careful in the future with this product. The only possible thinking relating the event to the poison is that Arsenal is extremely powerful and migrated through the root system into the waters edge.

I will add a post if anything different develops.

Casper



#8 Guest_CATfishTONY_*

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:19 PM

My friend came by the studio today and i shared with him all the responding posts regarding this topic. Thanks to each of you for your suggestions and thoughts.

He has had no / zero fish die, nor have any more tadpoles since the initial event. He assured me that it did not rain the immediate days afterwards and again that he was not sloppy, spilly with the chemical and i believe him. He was very careful, very precise and applied it immediatly upon cutting the small trees, as recommended per the instructions. The 18 small sweet gum trees were located together along a short 12' stretch 3 or 4 feet up the bank from the water's edge. The rest of the pond's perimeter is grassy and was untouched... yet the dead tadpoles were found all along the 1/2 acre pond's edge.

I think it is going to remain a mystery but he knows to be very very VERY careful in the future with this product. The only possible thinking relating the event to the poison is that Arsenal is extremely powerful and migrated through the root system into the waters edge.

I will add a post if anything different develops.

Casper


test the water for zoo plankton. small animals feed the bigger ones. he may have a larger problem.

#9 littlen

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:57 AM

Without sending any of the tads out for a toxicology report, it's hard to say whether it was from the chemical or not, though it seems likely. It could have been extremely hot, and they suffocated in the shallows...who knows. The good news is that I'm sure there is not enough insect life around the ponds edge to have supported hundreds of Green/Bullfrog froglets...which would have all probably starved to death over the next month or two. The even better news is that the resident frogs will breed again.
Nick L.

#10 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:12 AM

Out of zillions of Tadpoles i think only a few make it to frogdom. Still tadpoles serve a long living purpose submerged. During their 3 year tadpole life they eat massive amounts of grunge. Sometimes in the early spring, the cement pond will start developing a nasty submerged algae and then along will come a new crop of frog eggs and baby tadpoles. Within a couple weeks the unpleasant grunge will be sandblasted away and the tadpoles plump. Eventually a few will grow into Bullfrogs and when i can almost not stand the black helicoptor chorus of a dozen bullfrogs ocsilating in an ever loudening roar startling me awake at night a raccoon will visit and thin down the population.
:)

Zoo Plankton? Its not a Zoo but there is was a quarter Ton of tadpoles. The only Planks were on the fishing pier.

Is this the test?

:)

I will probably fish up there this fall and maybe share an accounting of whats within the waters.




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