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Invasive Native Minnow found in NH


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#41 Guest_AussiePeter_*

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:42 AM

As for fish colonizing the pond surrounded by an embankment, alot of people have told me that waterfowl can carry fish eggs on their legs. Not sure how true it is. I do however know sunfish and bullhead have a habit of appearing in new ponds mysteriously.

Then again sunfish and bullheads are commonly moved and stocked by anglers too, especially kids who bring fish home do not want to clean them, and dump them in nearbye waters. (when I was a stupid little kid and clueless of the consequences I was guilty of this and stocked a few small fire ponds).


Sunfish and bullhead eggs are both unlikely to be moved by birds as they are nest spawners on the bottom which is well away from where they might get attached to ducks. I'm yet to see any evidence that says anything fishy has ever been found on a bird. Indeed, most stuff carried by birds is very small, mostly plant seeds and some plankton species from memory. For birds to work fish would probably need to spawn directly onto the bird and have quite adhesive eggs. Then when the bird lands the eggs would need to detach onto a suitable substrate, hatch, both males and females survive, and then breed. It is theoretically possible, but seems extremely unlikely to me.

I think that people often underestimate other people moving fish around too. Even if it is done as a prank by friends, I'm sure it happens a lot more than people realize too.

Cheers
Peter

#42 Guest_rjmtx_*

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 10:55 AM

Alright, I've held back on this one, but the Alligator Gar example does not add any evidence to the flying fish hypothesis. When you ask why their ranges extend one direction and not the other, look at the nature of the streams, rainfall gradients, etc., before jumping to any conclusions. Also, there are plenty of disjunct naturally occurring populations of fishes out there separated from their nearest relatives by multiple drainage basins. Flying fish? No, usually a relict populations that have found a refuge against extirpation. We see this time and time again in Central and West TX.

If storms moved more fish, we would probably not see the gradients of numbers of fish per basin in unconnected streams. I've done a lot of work on the Western Gulf Slope between the Calcasieu in LA and the Rio Grande. If fish populations were going to expand their ranges by air, it would be in this region. Plenty of hurricanes and tornadoes to get the job done. In looking at natural fish diversity across the region, I see a linear decline in richness westward. Ranges can be explained by past climate and hydrology as well as current factors. Nowhere have I seen any evidence that current fish populations have gotten to a stream by the air. Even with extirpations, we would see a much more homogeneous assemblage across the region if air fish were more common.

Am I saying that it can't happen? No, but it is extremely unlikely.

#43 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 01:21 PM

It was worth a shot. Agreed, the gar do not really add much and plenty of differences exist in the ecology across those lines. Thanks, all of you have given me plenty to think about and my RED BULL :lol: fish hypothesis was almost certainly overstated in the best case scenario from the beginning. Some of you have a lot of detailed information I do not. It remains a curiosity I will continue to think about though but almost certainly not terribly significant in the big picture. I do not think I can successfully make an honest case otherwise. Too many special pleadings are always a bad sign. Thanks, I appreciate the responses.

#44 Guest_AussiePeter_*

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 10:22 PM

It was worth a shot.



Always fun debating this stuff, thanks for stirring the pot!

Cheers
Peter

#45 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 10:32 AM

Hopefully the debate had a more serious function than just stirring the pot. I certainly wanted to know how far the idea could reasonably be pushed, but it appears that reasonableness puts heavy constraints it. Hypothetical storm transport of fish remains interesting but the effect cannot be large enough for very clearly significant ecological effects.

#46 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 01:53 AM

I wonder if it was just a one off, or small group, that was dumped the same season as it was collected and will soon disappear. Just like the piranhas, tilapia, gar and other oddballs that are occasionally recorded but never get established.

In my area we supposedly have a surviving group of Pacu, even though the river freezes several feet thick. I don't know how much truth is in this, but it is peculiar that there are hundreds of Pacu of all sorts of different sizes caught here every year and from my knowledge there aren't any local stores that sell them.

#47 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 10:38 AM

Hundreds of pacu in MN every year, really? Got any more details? Pacu are not very cold-tolerant. Plenty get released in the Carolinas, and a few are caught most years, but so far there's no evidence of them surviving over winter or reproducing here. Maybe if constant warm flow from a powerplant provided a thermal refuge they could survive. We have Tilapia (blue and redbelly) reproducing in a couple of powerplant-heated lakes here, and occasional large pacu are caught, but never any young.

In my area we supposedly have a surviving group of Pacu, even though the river freezes several feet thick. I don't know how much truth is in this, but it is peculiar that there are hundreds of Pacu of all sorts of different sizes caught here every year and from my knowledge there aren't any local stores that sell them.



#48 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:04 PM

I would hardly call the difference from glacially recharged, high gradient, cool-water central forest streams AND alluvial plain, low gradient, warm water cypress / cane break big rivers EQUIVALENT!
Todd


Right. That was my point way back, umm...this is the same thread still, right? :rolleyes: Ummm, I mean about the stream dace introduced from a bait bucket.
Can't see how a fish like that got into a commercial bait tank or carried from hundreds of miles away by private parties.

Random observations:
Fish get sucked into water spouts but they are in the air, not underwater. How do they breath long enough to arrive alive?

Fish eggs on birds feet is total bunk and doesn't even have a shred of common sense. No need to review the biology of such a foolish notion.

I have accidently introduced rainwater killies from tank to tank by moving plants around. This is a distance of no more than 30 feet and the plants were never allowed to become dessicated. Killie eggs are well known for being able to withstand a bit of air time. Sunfish and bullheads, not so much.

I personally have observed that juvie banded sunfish and redfin pickerel follow the leading edge of rising waters that eventually overflow into vernal pools, fire ponds, landscaping ponds etc. Doesn't matter if it's beaver or a 100 year flood. If the final arrival location doesn't dry up and at least one pair make the journey, new populations result. Banded sunfish turn up all the time in minnow traps being used to capture salamanders from vernal pools. Normally, the population dies out when the pools dry up. If it persists for a few seasons, or if they reach a permenant water body, new populations are born.

We all know about the bait bucket problem but non-anglers probably don't appreciate just how big a problem it really is. The only reason it is not a bigger problem is that the bait species in general all already wide spread. It's the oddball species mixed in that get our attention. Very, very few anglers will kill unwanted bait. If they can't be reused or given away, they're going in the pond.

Sadly, anglers are also frequently guilty of intentional transplanting species where they don't belong. There is a long, sad list of damage done by such irresponsible behavoir.

#49 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 08:21 PM

The storm transport issue is dead. The Pacu and related Piranha, though hundreds is likely big stretch, have been found in various northern states. Enough that a number of questions have been raised whether they are finding sanctuaries warm enough to survive winters. An episode of River Monsters was devoted to trying to catch some. The minimum cutoff temperature was determined and considered unlikely but possible.

USA Today link: Piranha caught in N.C. river

Piranha and Pacu in Indiana (2000-2002)
http://www.in.gov/dnr/4623.htm

15 inch pacu, from Lake Shafer, White Co.
15 inch pacu, gravel pit, Johnson Co.
14 inch pacu, Griffy Lake, Monroe Co.
2.7 lbs pacu, from St Joseph River, St Joseph Co.
8.75 inch pacu, private pond, Delaware Co.
two 10 inch piranhas, White River, Delaware Co.
seven piranha, city park pond, Boone Co.
piranha, Cedar Lake, Lake Co.
unconfirmed piranha, private ponds, Clay Co.


There are obviously plenty of irresponsible people.

#50 Guest_rjmtx_*

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 12:04 PM

Years ago I worked in a local fish store. We would take in big unwanted Pacu and put $5 on them, but would not sell young ones. The young ones were mostly coming from the big chain stores. Since it is really hard to sell a huge skittish pacu, we had a hatchet and club to take care of them when we got too many in the store (they don't sell, are jumpy, and get will devour other fish in a tank setting). It was surprising how many people were responsible enough to bring them in, but there were probably a lot more people that didn't care and dumped them. In central TX, pacu popping up in the wild are not really out of the ordinary.

#51 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 03:27 PM

Since it is really hard to sell a huge skittish pacu, we had a hatchet and club to take care of them when we got too many in the store (they don't sell, are jumpy, and get will devour other fish in a tank setting).


Pacu are hard to kill!
I got a 90 gallon tank for free on the condition I take the 5 LB pacu that was the sole occupant. I really wanted that tank, the pacu, not so much. Sadly, he died soon after I set up the tank. Poor thing had a fatal encounter with an axe handle. I should say several encounters... :-$

#52 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 06:46 PM

I'd be pretty upset if you abused my trust (and my fish!) in that manner :(

#53 Guest_rjmtx_*

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 07:26 PM

I'd be pretty upset if you abused my trust (and my fish!) in that manner :(


You would also be upset if you saw a beautiful fish that was eaten so fast by a horde of Pacu that it was left with no more than a breathing head. It's the same reason people have to euthanize any unwanted pet. There were simply not enough resources to keep them, and hardly any hope of them ever being adopted. As we told many customers, we ran a business not a charitable organization.

I would get pretty angry every day when we had people dumping huge fish on us that were mistreated in every way possible. Stuntings, deformations, diseases, etc. Ever seen a full-grown large Central American Cichlid that can't turn any wider than a hairpin turn because it's spent its whole life in a 29 gal tank?

We wouldn't lie to people. It pretty much came with the spiel when we told them that we couldn't give them money for their fish and why. A fish store is not an animal sanctuary.

Frankly, since working at that store I haven't bought any tropical fish for myself. I still work with native fish, but have serious qualms with the pet industry on many levels. Captive bred fish and native fish are a totally different story when kept responsibly.

Have I derailed the thread enough yet?

#54 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 08:32 AM

That was addressed to Mikez. I have no problem with your practice.

#55 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 08:56 AM

I'd be pretty upset if you abused my trust (and my fish!) in that manner :(


You're right. It was not a great thing to do and not too good to post either. :blush:

I can only justify with several facts;

I never promised I wouldn't dispose of it. The owner knew me enough to know the possible outcome but chose not to address the issue because he had no other options short of dumping it the Nashua river.

I knew dam well that fish was gonna end up in that river which was across the street. He'd made several half joking comments to that effect even before he decided to get rid of it.

I did not abuse the fish. The fish was huge and obese living on dogfood in a bare tank that it could barely turn around in. The water was impossible to keep clean with the giant feces and the fat from the dog food, plus the owner never understood the nitrification cycle and usually killed the filter everytime he "cleaned" it. That fish was miserable. If a dog or cat was kept it such conditions, the state would have taken it away and probably filed charges. They'd probably end up euthanizing the sick animals too.

I don't deny I took the tank for selfish reasons but if the tank was not part of the picture but the owner had asked my opinion, I would have offered my ax handle.
Problem was, although he couldn't see how cruel his treatment of the fish was, he wouldn't have the heart to go through with it. Dumping it in the river would have been, to him, like "setting it free".

The fish did not suffer in its passing.

#56 Guest_rjmtx_*

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 09:58 AM

That was addressed to Mikez. I have no problem with your practice.


So I got fired up for nothin'?

#57 Guest_CaptainCritter_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:02 PM

I like the fish we have in New England, wish we had more, but that's what makes traveling so fun. As for the limited variety of herps we have in N.E., that really stinks. I mean c'mon man, not one measly species of lizard. Weak.

My first worried thought when i saw the article was "I hope those were not what we caught in New York" then I realized what we caught were redside dace not rosyside.

I have considered the possibility of a rogue NANFAn playing "Johnny Pumpkinseed" before, after all most members have thought of it, but was told by a couple other members I went sampling with not to ask it as the possibility of finger pointing, paranoia, and blame going to everyone who found a new fish in their sampling area could be destructive. Still it does explain darter introductions (such as tesselated in the merrimack drainage and rainbows in schohairie) as darters are rarely bait fish in most states and relatively unknown to fishermen.

This whole scenario gives me mixed feelings.

On one hand I worry about the damage a new minnow may cause to existing species and the possible backlash against collercting.

On the other hand I am excited on a new species for me to catch I never seen before and the possibility of new england fish maybe getting respect now a colorful minnow was discovered here (after all, I heard alot that other other states turn up their nose at new england fish and even some new englanders in NANFA hate the native new england fish species).



#58 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:24 PM

I like the fish we have in New England, wish we had more, but that's what makes traveling so fun. As for the limited variety of herps we have in N.E., that really stinks. I mean c'mon man, not one measly species of lizard. Weak.



I just learned about that looking through a new england nature guide on my ipad. (someone should really make a native fish finder ap). Also shocking was to find new england has a cactus.

Sure we have all kinds of odd climate fossils here. It's not just cold temperate with the occasional tropical stray brought by the gulf stream.

Arctic stragglers from the ice age such as arctic butterflies on a few mountains, arctic char trout, maine used to have carabou, etc.

warmer climate hold outs such as tupelo trees that somehow survived the ice age. (also sometimes shells wash up from creatures no longer in new england to show it was once a warm temperate climate too).

Then bizarre stuff like the lizards, cactus, and the sadly now extinct subspecies of the greater prarie chicken called the heath hen. which makes me wonder where the desert/prarie comes into the picture

#59 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:04 PM

Then bizarre stuff like the lizards, cactus, and the sadly now extinct subspecies of the greater prarie chicken called the heath hen. which makes me wonder where the desert/prarie comes into the picture

If you spent much time on the Vineyard or Nantucket you'd understand; they're different climates than the mainland, and Nantucket especially is covered by heath rather than forest.

#60 Guest_CaptainCritter_*

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 04:58 PM

[quote name='fundulus' timestamp='1311876261' post='91015']
If you spent much time on the Vineyard or Nantucket you'd understand; they're different climates than the mainland, and Nantucket especially is covered by heath rather than forest.
[/ S.E. Mass and Cape Cod also has the 3rd largest area of Pine Barrens on Earth after N.J. and Long Island according to Wikipedia. I work and live in Bourne, MA and I can tell you there is a difference between this area and say the Worchester or Boston areas in terms of climate and vegetation. I once took a buddy of mine from Florida here and showed him Myles Standish State Forest in Plymouth and then the Cape, and he thought it was the strangest looking place he'd had ever been to. Not the beaches, but the inland parts where it's really hilly and " piney ". He just didnt picture the Cape as looking that way. Pitch Pine and Scrub Oak are the 2 most predominant species, but i know of several locations where the Eastern Prickly Pear Cactus grows. Although, I'm pretty sure it's a protected species in this state.




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