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Native Fishes of Kentucky Set-up at the Louisville Nature Center


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#21 Guest_AndyFrink_*

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:31 PM

Erica,
That sounds easy and reasonable. Probably easier than using fish and having to risk disease and parasites. Letting the tank cycle for a while shouldn't be a problem, since I have a lot of other things to take care of in terms of subtrate, driftwood, plants, location, background, and capture trip planning.

I will start another thread specifically for this question (http://forum.nanfa.o...rs-and-darters/), but I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the intensity of stream current for shiners and darters, specifically in the state of Kentucky. I understand that they are riverfish and therefore require currents, but I am not sure about how intense the currents we are replicating are when compared to the natural environment. For example, would these currents be considered a slow moving stream or a rapid current. There are three reasons that I am seeking this data: 1) because I want to have the correct stream flow in my tank, 2) because I am doing research about putting live plants in my tank and I want to know what species will be appropriate (assuming stream flow is important for plants), and 3) I would like to considering putting something about various flows of streams in my educational display.

Edited by AndyFrink, 24 February 2012 - 02:34 PM.


#22 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:58 PM

Andy,

I know you are trying to be accurate and I respect that... But you do not need to worry about the flow that much. You will not be able to create as much flow as there is in some places and in other places it is minimal anyway... In every stream. Also, while steam fishes certainly like some flow and the tank will look better with a nice current in it, the fish will be fine even if your flow is less than they are used to. So you would be best to create the flow that creates the look that conveys the "feel" of the river to your target audience.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#23 Guest_AndyFrink_*

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:36 PM

Alright, after doing research for a while, that’s pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I think I have found a few types of plants that I think might be start for trying some native plants. I'm looking at Podostemum ceratophyllum, Cabomba caroliniana, and Ceratophyllum. If anyone has any experience with these plants, any information would be helpful, otherwise, I'll go look around the forums and I'm sure someone has some discussion about them.

I got a couple donations over the weekend of various items. I got 3 power heads, two of them seem to be big, and the other is probably for a little bit of a smaller tank (although it does have an oscillating head, if that’s useful). I think between the 3 of them, I ought to be able to set something fairly decent up. From what I've seen in the other forms, I want to have their current directed as low as possible in order to create the best flow. Am I free to use any type of PVC pipe in the tank in order to build an apparatus that will direct flow? Do I just want to connect the PVC without any type of adhesive (I have to imagine that the PVC glue would be highly toxic).

I also got a donation of a penguin 170 hang-on filter. While this filter is much to small to be used as the only tank filter, I think it will be helpful for cycling the tank and could potentially be used in tangent with another filter in order to supply enough filtration.

I should be picking up the tank on Thursday afternoon. One option I've been discussing with the director of the Nature Center is the idea of putting the aquarium stand on wheels so that it can be moved at a later point in time. The display will be on concrete, so I think this option might be viable. Does anyone have experience with putting tank stands on wheels? I think the weight of a full 75 gallon aquarium is about 800 pounds.

#24 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:22 PM

Am I free to use any type of PVC pipe in the tank in order to build an apparatus that will direct flow?

Use potable PVC.

I'm looking at Podostemum ceratophyllum, Cabomba caroliniana, and Ceratophyllum. If anyone has any experience with these plants, any information would be helpful...

I've grown cabomba caroliniana and ceratophyllum demersum. I had full spectrum lights and the tank was in front of a window (I think, in hindsight, that the window is why I had algae problems. Don't put your tank in front of a window). In my 7.5 pH, 16 to 20 DH water the ceratophyllum demersum loved its life, to the point where it grew inches every day no matter what I did to it.

The cabomba did have some issues. It didn't do so well when there was algae-cide at 3x its intended dosage in the water. I hear it's more of a soft water plant, so maybe that's why it was the first of the vascular plants in my tank to die to the algaecide. The myriophyllum aquaticum survived the algae-cide and the cabomba caroliniana didn't. *shrugs* But at least it grew for a while. I had tried cabomba once before, in pea gravel. In gravel the cabomba never worked for me, every time eventually withering away. When I tried in kitty litter the cabomba grew big and strong and deep green, with nice healthy roots. Until I killed it with three times strength Tetra Pond Algae Clear®.

I wrapped the ceratophyllum demersum around the top bar of a half buried rectangle of half inch potable PVC pipe. It doesn't like being buried, so wrapping it around something low to the ground is the only way to 'bury' it without rotting it. Picture that shows the exposed PVC pipe edges: http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html
Another picture: http://gallery.nanfa...er/005.JPG.html
Here's the tank when I first planted the cabomba: http://gallery.nanfa...l+size.jpg.html
February 26th 2011: http://gallery.nanfa...llsize.jpg.html
March 1st 2011: http://gallery.nanfa...llsize.jpg.html
March 12th: http://gallery.nanfa...uarium.jpg.html
It grew pretty nicely in the kitty litter. Soil or fine particulates are cabomba's friend. It hates pea sized gravel.

Yup. If you have any questions in particular about those two plants, let me know.

Edited by EricaWieser, 28 February 2012 - 03:33 PM.


#25 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:04 PM

Podostemum will be tricky- it lives on the surface of rocks in very high-flow, highly aerated environments with no shade. I have aspirations to build a setup that Podostemum will grow in, but I think in your case you should let it be.

Ludwigia palustris is a very common, hardy, attractive plant that grows in many aquatic environments in Kentucky. It needs a fair amount of light but is otherwise undemanding.

#26 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:17 PM

Ludwigia palustris is a very common, hardy, attractive plant that grows in many aquatic environments in Kentucky. It needs a fair amount of light but is otherwise undemanding.

That is a good suggestion.
I've got three species of Ludwigia in my tank and like them a lot. It's neat how they're not just solid green; they get tints of gold, red orange, and maroon, too. They're good plants.

#27 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:11 PM

I think I have found a few types of plants that I think might be start for trying some native plants. I'm looking at Podostemum ceratophyllum, Cabomba caroliniana, and Ceratophyllum. If anyone has any experience with these plants, any information would be helpful, otherwise, I'll go look around the forums and I'm sure someone has some discussion about them.

I generally avoid the hornwort for stream tanks as, like Erica mentioned, it's not rooted and needs to be attached to something to keep it in place. It can also be brittle. The higher flow rate of a stream tank will likely cause it to break apart and find it's way to the intakes of pumps and filters. Because of this, it may require a little more maintenance than rooted plants. This is just my experience.

Steve

#28 Guest_AndyFrink_*

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:11 PM

Thanks for the replies, sounds great. I think I've got a few ideas of plants now, mainly Ludwigia , Podostemum and Cabomba caroliniana. What is the best way to go about getting plants? The easiest method for me would be to go collect the plants myself, since I have no budget.

Also, I'll be getting the tank tomorrow, and I know that I want soil substrate, but I was wondering what the best kind of dirt would be. I'm not sure if I want a riverbed soil, something more like clay, or some other kind of dirt. I'm also not sure on where the best place to get gravel to cap off my soil. I'll be doing some research of my own, but I'm sure a few people on here will be just as helpful as any research I do.

#29 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:27 PM

I think most of us who use top soil just dig it up from the back yard or where ever is convenient and you know there is no contamination. I'm in the process of setting up a 55 gallon stream tank. On this one, I'm capping my soil with creak gravel of all sizes. Everything from sand to 5"-7" stones. A few 5 gallon bucket fulls from a stream should probably suffice. I know you'd like to have the tank set up before you collect the fish, but a fun fish sampling trip to catch some of your target species might give you some cool ideas for a set up. I think this is why I like collecting so much. I like to make a mental note of the environment of every fish I keep. I can't always duplicate it's natural environment, but at least I hope it keeps me thinking in the direction I need to go.

Steve

#30 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:26 PM

You can probably get Cabomba clippings cheap or free from a local fish club. The "green cabomba" in the aquarium trade is our native species. I don't know how common it is in Kentucky, but it's quite rare in Tennessee. Same goes for Vallisneria.

Ludwigia palustris is very common. Wetland margins, silty pools of streams, and spring runs are good places to look. It's usually in sunny, shallow areas. You might run across some Najas, Potamogeton, or other nice species while looking for it. Many submerged plants are present year-round, which makes it easier; a lot of marginals don't sprout until late in the spring.

#31 Guest_AndyFrink_*

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:10 PM

Alright, sounds great, I've got some time to spending thinking about plants. I just got the tank today, so my list of immediate concerns is:

1) Getting wheels for the tank stand
2) Getting top soil dug up
3) Finding a stream that I can legally remove gravel from
4) Finding donation for a filter (either a second hang-on or a canister)
5) Getting water circulating

Does anyone know what the easiest way to find information regarding removing rocks/gravel from streams? I've got limited time this week to get water in the tank and start in cycling. I'm going to be out of town next week, so I'd like to get the tank set up and circulating by the end of this week.

#32 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:32 PM

3) Finding a stream that I can legally remove gravel from
Does anyone know what the easiest way to find information regarding removing rocks/gravel from streams?

That's a good question and the answer to it may, at least in part, lie in stream bed ownership laws. It's my general understanding that each state holds the ground under the water of navigable waters as public property. The word "navigable" is somewhat open to interpretation. It appears to mean waters that can be used for commercial boating in some situations and it means anywhere a kayak can go in other situations. Here in Ohio, the private landowner owns the ground beneath the water of a non navigable stream, while the water is still public property. I interpret this to mean that, with proper permission from the landowner, I am free to collect gravel for my aquariums from any stream that is too small for a kayak, and lies on private property. I know this doesn't really answer your question, but maybe it'll give you some more google ammo. I tried a little googling on this for Kentucky though, and didn't find anything. It might take a phone call or someone here may know more about Kentucky laws on this.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer by any means, so if someone has any better information or understanding of these laws please correct me on this so that I can also enjoy my hobby in the most legal way possible.

Thanks,
Steve

#33 Guest_AndyFrink_*

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:12 PM

Just as an update, I'm waiting to hear back from a local hardware store about getting a donation of wheels for the aquarium stand. Its going to be 6 caster wheels that are able to hold 255 lbs each. The weight of a full 75 gallon aquarium is around 850 lbs and the stand probably weighs around 50 lbs. With 6 wheels, I should be able to hold the aquarium on wheels without much difficulty. I will be adding some support to the bottom of the stand as well to ensure that it will be sturdy.

I'm still looking for one last powerhead, a canister filter, and possibly a chiller (although it most likely won't be a necessity). I have one 30 gallon biowheel filter that could potentially be combined with another hang-on filter to provide filtration as well, although I would really prefer to find a canister filter.

I'm going to be digging up some soil from the Louisville Nature Center and will be getting some gravel from a LNC member as well as a local landscapping bussiness. This way I don't have to deal with the legality of finding a stream and removing any resources.

#34 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:07 PM

Just as an update, I'm waiting to hear back from a local hardware store about getting a donation of wheels for the aquarium stand. Its going to be 6 caster wheels that are able to hold 255 lbs each. The weight of a full 75 gallon aquarium is around 850 lbs and the stand probably weighs around 50 lbs. With 6 wheels, I should be able to hold the aquarium on wheels without much difficulty. I will be adding some support to the bottom of the stand as well to ensure that it will be sturdy.

On a level surface, $10 or less of "furniture sliders" such as you'd find in any Wal* or home improvement store will absolutely help you move the stand and tank to get behind it temporarily for maintenance, etc. (Perhaps with help, although in my old house with wood floors I could move a double 55-stand myself.). Easier to install, and probably spread the weight a bit better than hard wheels.

#35 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:33 PM

Andy,

Sorry I've been a little absent from your threads, with the recent storms in KY my work has been stupid busy. What kinds of Powerhead are you looking for. I have 2 that are not in use that I would be willing to donate. Gravel from a landscaping company would be fine, just rinse it well. Also remember when we go collecting, we can get some nice river rocks for decorations. I'm a big fan of canister filters, and over filtration. I actually wish I had added a 4th Fluval to my current setup. Better safe than sorry. When you're trying to duplicate freshwater water from a mountain stream, clean water is a must.

#36 Guest_AndyFrink_*

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:14 PM

I have 3 assorted power heads right now. I was looking at making a flow bar like some of the ones you (Josh) had in your set-ups. I would expect the flow bar would use the two biggest power heads, but I'm not sure if that will provide a strong enough flow. I was thinking of using the last power head, and maybe an additional power head to make a spray bar to provide additional flow and also to make some running water type noises.

Do you think I would have any use for a pump like http://www.aquariump...-GPH-p-740.html? There is someone on craigslist trying to sell one of these for 75$, I could contact him and see if a donation would be a possibility. At 1190gph max, I would be able to make an ample amount of flow. Could I also rig something up into that set-up with some filtration? I guess it would be a sump? I have no experience with building this kind of filter, but there seems to be a lot of information online.

I think I could probably build something like http://www.cichlidfo...ead.php?t=33828 with little or no construction cost. We have plenty of extra 10g aquariums and a 20g sitting around not being used.

Edited by AndyFrink, 22 March 2012 - 12:24 PM.


#37 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

Did I miss something? Why are you talking about building a sump now? Those are generally only necessary in tanks with very high bioloads and not enough filtration on the main tank. I don't think you'll need one for the tank you have planned.

There are two things to do when ammonia is formed by the degradation of proteins in the food you feed your fish.
1. Feed the ammonia to beneficial bacteria which live in your filter media and then remove the nitrate they excrete with regular water changes.
2. Feed the ammonium to plants.

A sump is usually employed when either neither are possible or neither are sufficient. Here are two examples.
1. In a marine tank where the fishkeeper doesn't like macroalgae, a refugium in the stand under the main tank is an easy way to get the benefits of the macroalgae without having to look at it in the main tank. Marine fish are very sensitive to nitrates because the ocean is large enough to dilute any sudden concentration spikes, so having a filter alone could lead to nitrate spikes that would kill the very expensive fish. The macroalgae refugium/sump is a good way to keep nitrate down if a perturbation in the levels occurs in between water changes.
2. An African rift lake cichlid tank, where again the large water volume made nitrate spikes not a thing the fish ever had to deal with for thousands and thousands of years. Bacteria filtration alone is often not a good solution for cichlids because they're so extremely sensitive to nitrates, and a spike in between water changes can kill them. I used to have Neolamprologus multifasciatus but one day my nitrate bumped up a little higher than it was normally and they all died... Cichlid tanks are often heavily stocked to decrease aggression. This means there is a high bioload with lots of nitrogen being degraded into ammonia. And worse, the cichlids rip apart any plants. So a refugium is a good idea for cichlids (plants don't survive long in the main tank).

But for your fish? Why are you building a refugium/sump? You can put stream plants in your main tank without the fish intentionally ripping them apart, and more importantly, you can have a nitrosomonas/nitrospira bacterial filter. Our native species of fish are much much less nitrogen sensitive than those from the African rift lakes. There's no reason not to have a normal filter on the tank and to do regular water changes. If the nitrates rises up to 30 ppm over the course of the week between water changes the fish won't care. Stream and pond fish are cool like that; they've evolved to be less sensitive to nitrogen spikes, 'cause they had to be.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 March 2012 - 01:44 PM.


#38 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:01 PM

I mean, you could add a refugium if you wanted to. But you don't have to.
It would decrease the frequency of water changes. But then somebody would have to thin the plants every now and then.
I guess it's all about whether you expect the people who will care for this tank when you're not there anymore (intern?) to be more likely to change the water or be able to keep up with plant health and trimmings. If they can do a water change twice a month and if a refugium is going to be a pain in your butt, then don't feel like you have to do it. I guess that's all I'm trying to say.

Is a water line available to tap into to do automatic water changes? Then all they'd have to do is feed it.
Example: http://www.aquaticpl...nge-system.html
It might interfere with being able to move it around, though.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 March 2012 - 03:19 PM.


#39 Guest_AndyFrink_*

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:44 PM

Well, mainly because I could make one for ~15$ with the supplies that I already have. I guess the other option is to just wait until I can find someone willing to donate a filter and use the 30 gallon filter I currently have. I am just worried that with underfiltrating the tank, I'm going to have to do a condierable amount more maintainance. In a perfect world, I'd grab a canister filter and be done with it.

#40 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:20 PM

Well, mainly because I could make one for ~15$ with the supplies that I already have.

Okay, if it's easy for you.

I am just worried that with underfiltrating the tank, I'm going to have to do a condierable amount more maintainance. In a perfect world, I'd grab a canister filter and be done with it.

You can run it as your tank's only filter if you want.

To quote Diana Walstad from what she said on http://theaquariumwi...ical_Filtration ,

I have been surprised at how little biological filtration is actually required in my planted aquaria. When I gradually decreased biological filtration by removing the packing media from the canister filters, the fish continued to do well. Finally, years later I took the decisive step and removed the canister and outside filters altogether and just used cheap internal pumps to circulate the water. Fish never missed a beat; the planted tank itself is a filter!

Aquatic plants, then, are much more than ornaments or aquascaping tools. They remove ammonia from the water. Furthermore, they remove it within hours (Fig 1, Table 2). When setting up a planted tank, there is no need to wait 8 weeks to prevent ‘new tank syndrome’. (Nitrifying bacteria require several weeks to establish themselves in new tanks and make biological filtration fully functional.) Thus, I have several times set up a new tank with plants and fish all on the same day.


If it starts to get too overwhelming for you as a construction project, just keep in mind that native fish do just fine without a refugium, using only your average run of the mill filter.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 March 2012 - 07:27 PM.




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