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Collecting Stress > Ion Loss > White Fuzzy Death


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#21 littlen

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 11:08 AM

I know of some professionals in the aquarium industry that routinely keep many of their FW exhibits at 1-2ppt year round for the larger exhibits displaying various basses/sunnies, gar, cats, sturgeon, trout,, esox, No issues thus far.
Nick L.

#22 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 11:11 AM

Fish farmers with livelihoods based on successful handling and transport of fish expend a significant portion of their budgets on salt whenever fish are insulted by handling or transported. Most private producers have more experience with such than any two parties that work with natives for research or home entertainment.

#23 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:08 PM

I know of some professionals in the aquarium industry that routinely keep many of their FW exhibits at 1-2ppt year round for the larger exhibits displaying various basses/sunnies, gar, cats, sturgeon, trout,, esox, No issues thus far.


Those are all groups that are known to tolerate at least some salt naturally. A couple are sea going.
Keeping a constant low salt level that does not fluctuate would not be stressful, mimics natural conditions and is good defense against freshwater parasites. It has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of dumping salt in whenever a fish sneezes, or even when they don't.

#24 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:11 PM

Fish farmers with livelihoods based on successful handling and transport of fish expend a significant portion of their budgets on salt whenever fish are insulted by handling or transported. Most private producers have more experience with such than any two parties that work with natives for research or home entertainment.


While I see the validity to your reasoning, I do not find mass commercial production of any live stock to be in the best long term interest of the animals and do not ever seek to emulate their husbandry practices.

#25 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:28 PM

This topic was brought back to my attention when I returned a couple weeks ago with a bunch of shiners from Florida. When I unpacked them after a few days in a cooler and a 30 hour ride in the trunk, I found most of the shiners had ragged, fuzzy looking tails.
Classic collecting stress, right? Even though the fish came from a habitat with little or no natural salt, 99 out of 100 people would have dumped in salt. I confess I was taken aback, was really looking forward to enjoying me new fish. Considered adding salt myself.
Then I figured out I had accidently included a mosquito fish in the species I brought home. I removed the offender, did a series of small water changes and nothing else. Every tail is 100% healed. I maintain a dose of salt would have added to the collecting stress and other problems would have cropped up.

FWIW, I brought home about 25 fish from 5 species, some were in my cooler for several days before the long drive home. I never added any salt or any other chemicals. I didn't lose a single fish and now I got about a bazillion new mollie and least killie fry from gravid females that made the trip no problem.

#26 littlen

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 12:00 PM

I do not see the foundation for your statement that "a dose of salt would have added to the collecting stress and other problems would have cropped up". How have your experiences using salt to transport fish supported your claim? Your previous statement does not support such a claim. I am a supporter of adding salt even though I routinely do not when transporting fish. It it my hope that others who do will chime in.

As I just said, I do not transport fish with salt. The 2 main reasons for that is 1) I don't ever think to pack it. 2) I have had great success transporting fish for many years without salt. However, I attribute my success to safe and wise transporting techniques. Those techniques being; I maintain appropriate stocking levels in transport bins, bags, buckets, coolers, etc. I provide excellent aeration--to include direct O2 injection if necessary to maintain a good DO concentration. I will routinely provide large water changes--50% or more if the water has become cloudy/dirty, etc. I will provide temperature control--mainly ice packs to keep fish on the cooler side & to keep DO up. It is likely that most folks do not provide this level of care, and that is ok because whatever they're doing (or not doing) is working for them. This goes to show that salt isn't always necessary, but I will not admit or support a claim that adding salt increases stress and poses other problems. I'm not saying that you didn't do everything I listed AND STILL had some sort of outbreak. By no means is anything/everything I listed going to 100% prevent an outbreak----but they will greatly reduce the chances--as will adding salt!

There is also no evidence that shows that the mosquito fish was responsible for the rest of your fish coming down with something. Being that the mosquito fish was collected in the same waters as some of your other fish--it was exposed to the same pathogens as the fish that showed symptoms. Any one of the [already] infected and stressed fish could have shed the pathogen and infected the rest. I do not feel that removing the fish AND doing water changes cured your fish. Simply doing the water changes did.

You also have a contradiction in two of your posts: #23 and #25. In #23 you say, "Keeping a constant low salt level that does not fluctuate would not be stressful, mimics natural conditions and is good defense against freshwater parasites". Yet in #25 you say, "Even though the fish came from a habitat with little or no natural salt...." So which is it? Are there low levels of natural salts in freshwater environments, or aren't there? Truth is there are low levels of salts [other than NaCl] in freshwater bodies of water. There are a lot of posts on this forum dealing with salt and ion loss in stressed fish. I highly recommend glancing them over. Also going back to post #23, if you say that "a constant low salt level....would not be stressful" then why do you also say that salt adds to stress? That is a contradiction. So again I ask, which is it?

I do not think it is fair to make a claim that salt does nothing to aid in fish transport and could also cause other problems during transport. This is not necessarily an attack on you personally, but rather your bold claim(s) It is my hope that you don't take this the wrong way and we can have a constructive conversation. You disputed some previous posts and this is my response. Simple as that.
Nick L.

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 01:20 PM

While I see the validity to your reasoning, I do not find mass commercial production of any live stock to be in the best long term interest of the animals and do not ever seek to emulate their husbandry practices.


Mike you are being contrary. You may not like the end product of your foe but sometimes your foe has methods that should not be discredited without more consideration. This is especially true when the fish farmers have been stressing and handling fishes for longer and more frequently than you have.

#28 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:32 PM

Mike you are being contrary. You may not like the end product of your foe but sometimes your foe has methods that should not be discredited without more consideration. This is especially true when the fish farmers have been stressing and handling fishes for longer and more frequently than you have.


You're right, I'm sorry. I'm putting too much effort into this and coming across as more of a jerk than I really am.

I don't think salt is the wonder drug many seem to and I disagree with internet experts and pet store shysters who push it for everything. Beyond that, I surrender. Peace.

#29 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 05:17 PM

I do not see the foundation for your statement that "a dose of salt would have added to the collecting stress and other problems would have cropped up". How have your experiences using salt to transport fish supported your claim?


First of all, let me apologize for coming across as a jerk. I have debated this topic with internet experts on main stream aquarium forums several times over the years and I guess it's gotten under my skin. Also, I have been typing these posts in a hurry between other tasks and have not fully expressed myself correctly. Hopefully I can address your questions, most of which are the result of my poor communication skills.
Regarding salt adding stress - I believe manipulating water chemistry in any way is stressful. Stress leads to problems down the line that may not seem directly related. That's my opinion based on 52 years of keeping fish with very very good success, while observing the problems of others.
Regarding my experiences that lead me to this conclusion - again, my way works very very well. My fish don't get sick. On the flip side, I spent 10 years in the retail pet trade and way too many hours surfing fish web sites. My opinion is that too many people kill too many fish trying to cure them from diseases I never even see in my tanks. They all swear by salt as they replace yet more fish. I don't use it and I don't buy fish, just raise up healthy babies.

As I just said, I do not transport fish with salt. The 2 main reasons for that is 1) I don't ever think to pack it. 2) I have had great success transporting fish for many years without salt. However, I attribute my success to safe and wise transporting techniques. Those techniques being; I maintain appropriate stocking levels in transport bins, bags, buckets, coolers, etc. I provide excellent aeration--to include direct O2 injection if necessary to maintain a good DO concentration. I will routinely provide large water changes--50% or more if the water has become cloudy/dirty, etc. I will provide temperature control--mainly ice packs to keep fish on the cooler side & to keep DO up. It is likely that most folks do not provide this level of care, and that is ok because whatever they're doing (or not doing) is working for them. This goes to show that salt isn't always necessary

,

Up to here we are in complete agreement. I do most of the same things. You proved my point with the last statement.


...but I will not admit or support a claim that adding salt increases stress and poses other problems.


Now you're just defending salt "Just 'cause". Don't admit or support the claim that salt can add stress if it makes you feel better. I can tell you see my point but just don't want to accept it.


There is also no evidence that shows that the mosquito fish was responsible for the rest of your fish coming down with something.


Yes there was plenty of evidence. I did something a lot of people don't apparently do - I sat and observed my fish and thought about what was happening instead of panicking and dumping salt or chemicals in without a clue.
The mosquito fish was directly responsible due to the fact that it was harassing and tail nipping my shiners. Soon as I removed it, the fish relaxed and their tails healed 100% [I have pics]. No salt or chemicals were used and now you can't even tell the tails were all shredded.

You also have a contradiction in two of your posts: #23 and #25. In #23 you say, "Keeping a constant low salt level that does not fluctuate would not be stressful, mimics natural conditions and is good defense against freshwater parasites". Yet in #25 you say, "Even though the fish came from a habitat with little or no natural salt...." So which is it? Are there low levels of natural salts in freshwater environments, or aren't there? Truth is there are low levels of salts [other than NaCl] in freshwater bodies of water. There are a lot of posts on this forum dealing with salt and ion loss in stressed fish. I highly recommend glancing them over. Also going back to post #23, if you say that "a constant low salt level....would not be stressful" then why do you also say that salt adds to stress? That is a contradiction. So again I ask, which is it?.


Keeping fish that are known to tolerate brackish conditions in low levels of salt mimics natural conditions where such salt tolerant fish might be found - rivers with tidal influence for example.
That does not mean all freshwater has 2 ppt salt, far from it.
There are many, many fish which come from bodies of water where little to no salt is found [tropical fish more so, Amazon fish for example], yet conventional wisdom says dump in salt, period
I have glanced over the posts, I'm not as stupid as I apparently seem. Most were parroting ancient conventional wisdom without scientific backing. A couple had intelligent points, but none convinced me to dump in salt.

I do not think it is fair to make a claim that salt does nothing to aid in fish transport and could also cause other problems during transport. This is not necessarily an attack on you personally, but rather your bold claim(s) It is my hope that you don't take this the wrong way and we can have a constructive conversation. You disputed some previous posts and this is my response. Simple as that.


I'm sorry you don't think it's fair. It's never popular to contradict the cherished notions of the masses. I hope you remain curious about the topic and look into it further without blindly accepting what others have been repeating after they blindly accepted what some other "expert" told them.

#30 littlen

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 11:40 PM

Mikez, first off, we do not need to flex our "52 years of fishkeeping" muscle here. Fishkeeping, and the length of time one has been doing it does not make one better at it than someone with fewer years. I understand it is the go-to excuse many use to try to make their explanation(s) more credible. So thank you for that immaterial point. The question at hand is, does the addition of salt to a stressed fish during transport help? Maybe you're completely overlooking the fact that the fish are already extremely stressed from the capture, handling, and containment in a bucket. Not because the salt was added. Excess mucus is being produced and lost, natural body salts are being lost, respiration is elevated, and temperature and other water parameters are constantly changing. Salt helps to alleviate some of these issues. You have no data (other than observations) to support your claim that salt added to a transport container does nothing and adds to the problem. From previous topics on this forum, it is my understanding that many others will dispute that readily. Myself and others have firsthand experience and success using salt--and didn't just read what some "internet expert" said.

Comparing stressed (tropical) fish in a retail setting to wild-caught natives is a poor example. For starters, most tropicals come in with a much higher pathogen load than a fresh caught native. Additionally, the retail tropicals have endured far more stressors in their trip from location "X" (usually overseas) to John Doe's living room tank. At this point, said tropical fish are already severely immunocompromised and will not be cured by the addition of salt. So it is no surprise that you've dealt with folks who had [an already sick fish when purchased] and tried to treat it with salt at home to no avail.


My comment of "salt isn't always necessary" is not what you and I are disputing. You are saying flat out, salt does not help, and causes more problem. I am saying the exact opposite--salt does help and certain does not hurt if used correctly and to an acceptable level for the species. I have used salt to treat stressed fish, and have used it for minor disease outbreak with success. Do not try to tell me that I "see your point and just don't want to accept it". My assumption is that you most likely have some difficulty properly dosing salt to a tolerable level when treating stressed fish during transport and HAVE caused them further stress. Again, my observations show that even if salt doesn't remedy an outbreak, or reduce stress, it does not hurt the animal. But without any scientific data and testing to support that claim, I guess my words are just as empty as yours. You are right though, excess salt/overdosing certainly does damage to freshwater fish.

Observations are great. Unfortunately scientific theories, principles, and truths are not formed on observation alone. So without experimentation and backing data, your claims of 52 years of observation are irrelevant. Furthermore, they do not equate to you being able to state that salt does not help and causes more problems. That is just your opinion and not a fact. My concern and issue is that you are trying to pass your opinions off as fact.

Mosquitofish, or any fish for that matter that nips at the fins of another, does not cause infection simply by the act of removing fin or flesh. In a healthy, pathogen free system, infection will not occur. So the fact that your mosquitofish caused a site for infection supports the fact that pathogens (bacteria or fungus most likely) were already present. What I am telling you is that had salt already been present, the "white fuzzy" stuff you noticed on the tails would very likely have not developed. Even if the mosquitofish remained and continued to nip. In many instances salt severely depresses or halts infection. Your inability to accept salt as a preventative medicine in this instance lead to the infections you saw. I am glad that you did not suffer any losses, and that the remedy of frequent water changes worked. But I do wonder how many fish you've lost over your 52 year stint that could have been avoided if you weren't so opposed to salt. The honest answer is that we'll never know but we each have our opinions.

I assume the fish in question both you and I are talking about transporting are groups such as sunnies, shiners, darters, and other such strictly freshwater/land-locked species. That being said, there are still natural salts in pure freshwater. When I use the term "salts" I'm not just talking about sodium chloride. There are other trace elements and salts at very low, but detectable, levels. Would I be able to bring a refractometer and get a reading of 2ppt? No. But there are salts. Stressed fish lose these salts, trace minerals, ion, etc. and can succumb to infection even easier. Keeping the fish in a transport container with an unnatural, but tolerable (~2ppt) level of salt allows there to be a higher concentration of salt outside of their body. The principle of osmosis tells us that because of this the dissolved salts in the water will permeate back into the fish. Thus a healthier, less stressed fish capable of fighting disease better than the same fish in the same container without salt.

Again, I have and will continue to use salt when necessary. Primarily for disease suppression and prevention. My ramblings about not using salt are only to show that if you can successfully reduce stress levels by your husbandry techniques during transport, you don't have to use it. In your case, despite your apparent best efforts using all the techniques I described, you still had an outbreak. My sympathy lies with the fish that they had to experience an infection because despite 52 years of experience, you refused to simply add a little salt to prevent a completely preventable infection.

I'm sure we can agree that all wild caught fish are going to have some natural load of pathogens in or on them. You and I clearly do our best to reduce stress naturally (aka, without additives) by manipulating the environment within the transportation container. We do so in the hopes that the fish does not become compromised in such a way that it, or others become infected with the already present nasties. The addition of salt can and does help. It's that simple. There are many factors that are possible that would still allow for infection to take hold despite the addition of salt. (Ex. if the fish lost a lot of scales being stuck in the seine, a large or deep open wound, etc.). Salt is not the cure-all, miracle treatment some claim it to be, but in a very basic sense, in a typical collecting situation, it does help. There are always rebels who oppose popular belief--even when it has been tried and proven. I'm glad you have had personal success without the usage of salt. But in the future try not to speak in absolutes when you have nothing but years of observation to back your claim. I would have gladly read over this thread and not thought twice about anything if you had stated all of this as simply a matter of opinion based on years of observation and experience. That's what most of us do, professional and hobbyist alike.

I am agreed to drop this discussion if we can both admit that our observations are anecdotal and our opinions are just that--opinions....regardless that I sit with the majority on this issue and you do not.
Nick L.

#31 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 04:18 PM

SOB, this forum format is frustrating! It lets you type in a long answer when your not logged on, then loses it. AAAAHHG!

This is way too frustrating. I'm not getting anywhere.
I never said I had pathogens!!!! SEE! That's just what I'm talking about! I say shredded fins, you've diagnosed pathogen and disease and proscribed preventive medicine - SALT!
Don't you get it? The mosquito fished shredded the fins with her teeth, no disease, no pathogen, no amount of salt could have stopped her.
No disease, no medicine, get it?
Add medicine where it's not needed, to already stressed fish, the fish die.
I've seen it with my own eyes a thousand times. Discount my years of observation, study and hands on experience if it helps you feel better. Doesn't change the facts.

Glad to not be part of your precious majority. In fact, I've made a career out of it. That's who I am. I am happy you majority guys are out there buying all that snake oil from from the pet shops and replacing all those fish that die. Even though the shop owners are laughing behind your back, your high volume keeps the price of dry goods down for me.
All good.

#32 littlen

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 05:00 PM

Mike, you are the one who alluded to the fact that there was possibly an infection; "most of the shiners had ragged, fuzzy looking tails". Perhaps a better selection of words would have cleared that up---tattered, damaged, etc. I'm sorry but when someone says their fish has any sort of "fuzz" on their body, it is usually a sign of fungal infection.

Even if that is what you meant, the fins were damaged, but there was no sign of secondary infection, salt STILL aids in preventing secondary infections when there is an open wound. Missing scales and/or damaged fins.

I'm amazed that you were able to see the teeth on your mosquitofish used to injure your shiners. Must be a new species of gambusia with extraordinarily large teeth. You again make another claim, "Add medicine where it's not needed, to already stressed fish, the fish die." What proof do you have? Specifically dealing with salt when used as a medicine.....or any medicine for that matter. Please show me data, evidence, or scientific journals that support such a ridiculous statement. What makes me feel better is either finding and reading literature, or performing experiments myself to support my suspicions. You use the word fact, yet I am concerned you are missing what it means for something to be fact.

It doesn't bother me that you choose not to use salt. It is a shame that you choose to be ignorant about its beneficial qualities. I refuse to continue this discussion with someone who thinks they know better than everyone on here and won't accept the possibility that he might be wrong. Good luck with your fishkeeping.
Nick L.

#33 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 08:13 PM

I think this thread has run its course, and is now locked.




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